MS Access Forum / General 1 / February 2006
What's "required" to get work in Access these days?
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google.1.jvmail@spamgourmet.com - 06 Feb 2006 19:32 GMT I have over 10 years strong experience coding in VBA, developing complex multi-user applications in MS Access (all versions), have worked with security, replication, and whole bunch of other aspects of desktop development. I've even developed web apps interfacing with both Access and SQL Server. I've done some with PHP, but my goal is to work with MS products more now. The exception to that would be I like working with Crystal reports.
How is it possible that, with all of this experience, and having put in dozens of applications to pertinent jobs, no HR manager can see my value yet. I've never had such a hard time finding _something_. I'm not sure if it's the lack of certification, or the lack of a degree that's holding me back. I've been complimented on my resume and skill-set by recruiters and prospective employers, but still nothing.
Can someone please tell me (and others looking for work they are qualified for), what do we need to do to "reveal" our value to prospective employers, or even short term clients? Is certification as good as a degree, or maybe better in this field?
Thanks in advance for any educational, marketing or resume advice.
Tom van Stiphout - 07 Feb 2006 02:46 GMT One thing that might help is to ask those HR managers why they did not select you. You may sometimes get a non-answer, but hopefully some of them would be candid with you. Another one is to ask a few friends to read your resume and give feedback.
As a hiring manager myself I rate certifications over a college degree, but not by much.
-Tom.
>I have over 10 years strong experience coding in VBA, developing >complex multi-user applications in MS Access (all versions), have [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >Thanks in advance for any educational, marketing or resume advice. David W. Fenton - 07 Feb 2006 03:22 GMT > As a hiring manager myself I rate certifications over a college > degree, but not by much. Would you rate expereince and recommendations over certifications? I certainly would if *I* were hiring.
 Signature David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/ usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
pamelafluente@libero.it - 07 Feb 2006 04:22 GMT The best thing, I believe, is quitting to use this platform.
The problem is that every boy with age above 5 can mess with it.
So these "skills" are easily found. I suggest you to switch to something which looks more like a RDBMS.
-Pam
Larry Linson - 07 Feb 2006 22:35 GMT > The best thing, I believe, is quitting to use > this platform. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > you to switch to something which looks > more like a RDBMS. Interesting view, Pamela, for someone who thought an Access newsgroup was a good place to "invite" Access users to visit her new forum. Was it your intention, even then, to try to discourage people from using Access? If so, for shame; if not, why the sniping now?
David W. Fenton - 07 Feb 2006 23:03 GMT > The best thing, I believe, is quitting to use this platform. > > The problem is that every boy with age above 5 can mess with it. > > So these "skills" are easily found. I suggest you to switch to > something which looks more like a RDBMS. Sandra (may I call you Sandra?), you are betraying now what we had all suspected, that you know absolutely nothing about Access at all.
Go get a life.
Hang around somewhere that will be useful to you and those who also hang out there.
Here, you're going to be ridiculed and ignored as long as you continue in this vein.
 Signature David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/ usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
Tom van Stiphout - 07 Feb 2006 04:23 GMT Experience yes. Recommendations (I'm assuming you mean letters of recommendation, or references) don't mean much to me.
-Tom.
>> As a hiring manager myself I rate certifications over a college >> degree, but not by much. > >Would you rate expereince and recommendations over certifications? I >certainly would if *I* were hiring. Ted - 07 Feb 2006 13:52 GMT It is tough to put your intangibles down on paper. Most companies or HR reps scan for specific items such as certifications and education and overlook the experiences we have. I'm mostly self-taught on everything I know. I started out working as a computer operator in 1986. I taught myself four programming languages and was promoted to a programmer job. I worked my way up until I was a regional manager for a large, nationwide bank. After setting out on my own I was doing well until 9/11. Since then I've struggled to find work. I would love a full time position with a company but I have only had three in-person interviews out of the more than 3,000 jobs I've applied for. Its really rough out there and I continue to scrap by with occasional Access projects and fixing computers.
David W. Fenton - 07 Feb 2006 19:37 GMT > It is tough to put your intangibles down on paper. Most companies > or HR reps scan for specific items such as certifications and > education and overlook the experiences we have. That's the problem -- much of the hiring is done by HR types who haven't a clue what the actual qualifications and requirements of the job they are hiring for actually are.
Experience and references mean something only to the people you're going to be actually working for. That means the IT folks.
I would suggest that perhaps you're applying for the wrong jobs.
Try going to some non-chain computer stores/VARs and asking them if their clients ever need any help with Access (or anything else you have qualifications in). Maybe they'll hire you out to their clients. That's where a lot of my work comes from.
 Signature David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/ usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
Lyle Fairfield - 07 Feb 2006 14:35 GMT Everyone has great recommendations and references. I haven't done much hiring lately, but for technical positions I liked to see and discuss examples of work. I remember a well-recommended rather beautiful well-dressed candidate who, when I asked her why she had used in-line-styles rather than links to CSS files in some wonderful html to which she had referred us (as her work), stood up and said, "I'm outta here, a.sholes!" as she walked out. We decided not to offer her employment but a couple of the younger males had to be convinced.
I, who like women a lot and am open about it, am often surprised at how much sexual attractiveness can influence hiring. For whatever reason I have tried not to let it affect my decisions. But for certain, it can be a factor with many. A female relative of mine says, "Sex is not the most important thing, sex is the only thing". Going to an interview and not managing ones sexuality appropriately might be an error.
If I were seeking Access employment I would consider hanging around here in CDMA, choosing the most challenging questions asked and responding with creative, comprehensive solutions, or just offering as tips some of my best work. I would include some of the best of these, or links to them, with my applications.
I don't want to discourage or disrespect anyone but I have found that many persons who think themselves capable as Access persons are not.
Certification can be the key that opens doors. Ten years ago I showed a secretary how to do a simple macro in Excel. She decided she liked that and each time over the next few months that I visited her boss, she stopped me and asked me a new question. After a while she decided to become MS certified. In three years her salary quadrupled. Today she's very advanced, and very successful. Why? Well she's smart; she works hard; she's conscientious and she's personable and skillful in dealing with people; but the certification gave her the opportunity to show these things.
Tom van Stiphout - 08 Feb 2006 02:53 GMT I always ask for code samples and will ask detailed questions about them. One time I thought I saw something familiar. A google search later I found the entire block of code on CDMA. We give those individuals the "soft landing".
-Tom.
>Everyone has great recommendations and references. >I haven't done much hiring lately, but for technical positions I liked [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >out. We decided not to offer her employment but a couple of the younger >males had to be convinced. <clip>
David W. Fenton - 08 Feb 2006 16:59 GMT > I always ask for code samples and will ask detailed questions > about them. One time I thought I saw something familiar. A google > search later I found the entire block of code on CDMA. We give > those individuals the "soft landing". Why? I don't see why someone should be penalized for being able to use someone else's code instead of writing it from scratch themselves (unless that was one of the ground rules and they misrepresented the code).
For myself, I would definitely want to hire Access programmers who knew to use CDMA as a source of help and code, if they showed they knew how to use it once they'd downloaded.
 Signature David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/ usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
Tom van Stiphout - 09 Feb 2006 02:47 GMT Sorry, I should have added that he passed it off as his own. Absolutely we have a rule never to reinvent the wheel. The first thing new hires need to do is become familiar with our code libraries.
-Tom.
>> I always ask for code samples and will ask detailed questions >> about them. One time I thought I saw something familiar. A google [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >knew to use CDMA as a source of help and code, if they showed they >knew how to use it once they'd downloaded. David W. Fenton - 07 Feb 2006 19:35 GMT >>> As a hiring manager myself I rate certifications over a college >>> degree, but not by much. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Experience yes. Recommendations (I'm assuming you mean letters of > recommendation, or references) don't mean much to me. Not letters. I mean calling up past employers and spending 15 minutes asking them about the projects the individual has done for them.
This is how I get all my work with unknown clients -- they talk to my past clients and get an earful of how great the work I did has been. Strangely enough, I never remove the projects from my References list that ended badly, but somehow, potential employers never seem to call those.
One recent situation had the person making the calls planning to make 4 calls, but she told me she quit after 2 since she didn't need to hear more about how well-qualified I was.
To me, the proof of qualifications is in reports of success from satisfied former employers.
 Signature David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/ usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
Tom van Stiphout - 08 Feb 2006 02:56 GMT Yes, we do that too. Not as much to hear about technical qualifications, but about soft skills (which most managers can more easily answer).
-Tom.
>>>> As a hiring manager myself I rate certifications over a college >>>> degree, but not by much. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >To me, the proof of qualifications is in reports of success from >satisfied former employers. google.1.jvmail@spamgourmet.com - 09 Feb 2006 02:39 GMT Thanks for that statement, David. I hope more "professionals" and hiring managers learn the wisdom you express. Looking further at additional posts, I realize that certification will open the doors for me, but I don't think Access certification is still available, is it?
I am thinking of going for SQL Server certification, but I would rather be a developer than a DBA. Is that a smart approach, or should I stick to the MCDBA? And will MCDBA do me any good?
Thanks again.
David W. Fenton - 09 Feb 2006 16:32 GMT > Thanks for that statement, David. I hope more "professionals" and > hiring managers learn the wisdom you express. Looking further at [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > rather be a developer than a DBA. Is that a smart approach, or > should I stick to the MCDBA? And will MCDBA do me any good? I contemplated certifications at one point, but decided it wasn't worth the money, unless you're looking to be hired by stupid people who think that certifications *do* mean something. My experience is that companies that put undue faith in certifications are likely to be badly run and impossible to work for.
Some of the smartest people I've ever worked with have no certifications.
Another downside of the MS certifications is that they teach only the MS way of doing things, which is often idiosyncratic and not well thought out in many cases. It's better, I think, to have broader experience with non-Microsoft products if you're doing MS certification so that you can tell where MS is steering you in the wrong direction.
In general, you can pass the certification tests without knowing anything of actual value in the real world.
 Signature David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/ usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
CDMAPoster@FortuneJames.com - 07 Feb 2006 19:48 GMT > I have over 10 years strong experience coding in VBA, developing > complex multi-user applications in MS Access (all versions), have [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Thanks in advance for any educational, marketing or resume advice. When I see that someone is certified I wonder if the cost of obtaining all that general knowledge was at the expense of specific knowledge obtained by solving actual problems. Also, unless a company is obligated by law to require resumes I don't ever submit one. The reasoning is that a resume is a screener. I supply as much information as necessary beyond what the referral source gave them, but if you want me to fill out a resume you're telling me that you really haven't decided to hire me. Education is great and the formalism of accredited cources is useful but most college courses really exist to provide an introduction. Some research and teaching assistants get close to current knowledge if they're careful about choosing their topics and how they go about their learning.
That said, the way things happened with me approaches bathos. Upon obtaining a Master's degree in Mechanical Engineering with straight A's I graduated in the midst of a decent recession. At that time companies hiring engineers were demanding more experience than I had. I also wanted to work on an automotive patent with a business parter and didn't want to get into any legal entanglements. Besides all that I had the impression that engineering jobs were being dumbed down. I built and repaired computers on the side, did a little programming, taught a few courses, passed out resistors, and most importantly, bought candy for the bowl of the secretary of the Computer Science department at Oakland U. I learned while working in Boston that it really pays to treat secretaries well when I finished a rush job that normally took three days in one day because all the secretaries put my requests ahead of others to the absolute amazement of my boss. I had a good reputation at the university so I let her know that if any companies needed software help that I would do it or try to find someone else who could do it.
Some of the leads were from individuals and some were from companies. The individuals were very good at paying and were appreciative of the work. Some of the companies were just trying to get a cheap deal with student help and as a result some of them were very poor leads indeed. Those experiences led me to adopt the referral system I use today. With the extremely high cost of hiring the wrong person you can be confident that not having a great referral source will likely keep you from getting the job.
The job I got at the consumer research company came through one of the university leads. A student who was working at a computer store saw me showing another student how to use Access and told me about their desire to produce a quote system for custom built computers. One of the reasons they wanted such a system was that if customers saw the quote in hard print they wouldn't be as likely to haggle with them over the price.
While I was finishing up that application their outsourced network tech saw that Access app and referred me to the diabetic supply company I worked for afterwards ($100/hr was nice but not excessive just after Y2K). Amazingly, the lead for the main company I work for was from a pool league teammate. He knew I knew Access and had some code that needed debugging. He was really a salesman and made much more money doing that than almost any programmer makes so he set me up with some contract work with them after I debugged his code successfully. My goal has always been to have five to 10 customers at a time but lately it has been two to three really good ones. So my advice is to get some of your satisfied customers to refer you to other companies and get a good hobby. For me, pool is great because it rewards wisdom and planning.
James A. Fortune CDMAPoster@FortuneJames.com
When deciding how to distribute venture capital I survey potential customers of the business and analyze the results with standard ANOVA techniques to see if the company has a reasonable chance to succeed. -- J. Knapp
CDMAPoster@FortuneJames.com - 07 Feb 2006 20:46 GMT > cources is useful but most college courses really exist to provide an And be sure to spell check that resume. Spelling mistakes look unprofessional :-).
James A. Fortune CDMAPoster@FortuneJames.com
After doing well enough on the William Lowell Putnam Math competition to place Oakland U. in the top 60 universities and myself in the top 500 my final two years, I happened to end up rooming with two guys in Boston that had higher scores. I took the GRE exam at MIT along with the Harvard/MIT pool of graduates and placed in the top 5 percent in Mathematics, English and Advanced Engineering with a perfect score in math. I still make mistakes but I try to keep them to a minimum.
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