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MS Access Forum / General 1 / January 2006Where are the Access Developers?
I'd like to open a discussion about the state of the industry. For the past year, I've been unable to find competent Access developers available for hire. I'm worried about that. I think there's great demand right now, and that's keeping the good developers busy, but that's not enough to explain the situation. Whenever I post an Access job, I get lots of responses from .NET developers, back-end database people, and web developers. They all have the attitude that "I don't really do Access application development, but Access is easy, so I can handle your job." (No!) The message I'm getting is that people are choosing to build their skills in .NET, in back-end database work, and in web development, even though the market is well-served in those fields, but they aren't building their skills in Access fast enough to keep up with the demand. If that is indeed what is happening, I can't find a good explanation why. Sure, Access has a lightweight reputation, and people don't see it as a career-maker -- but that has always been the case, yet somehow there have always been plenty of Access developers in the past. What has changed now? I can't help but wonder if Access's star has faded to the point where job seekers eschew it as old technology. That would be a shame, because I think it will be a very long time before Access loses its market niche. Anyway, those are my comments. I wonder if other Access professionals have made similar (or conflicting) observations. -TC Throughout my courses in computer information systems my instructors seemed to have a fairly low opinion of Access. We were taught just enough VBA to do some extremely basic things. Instead of learning more about Access, we were taught in-depth .NET concepts and did a lot of .NET coding. Access classes had a heavy emphasis on relational design. Before going to college I'd messed with Access before, making small, uncomplicated databases for myself and others, so I went through those courses without a hitch. However, there was very little offered for learning. Regardless of that, though, I was hired as an Access developer. Even with the minimal VBA skills taught at the college I was able to jump right in to Access programming because of the program design taught through the .NET classes. It seems to me that fewer people are calling themselves Access developers although they have the skills necessary to accomplish the tasks you may give them. Some skills are the same no matter what product or language you work with, and Access makes it easy to capitalize on those skills. VBA is so easy to learn that even if I hadn't worked with VB6 prior to working as an Access developer, I would have still picked it up within a couple weeks. Therefore, it is my opinion that some of the .NET people you have turned down may in fact be completely qualified for working on your Access databases, and that they simply call themselves something different than "Access developer". I've been using Access since the first week verion 1.0 was released for $89.00. For years I only dabled in it, making applications for work as needed, but I was involved and even led an Access Developer's Special Interest Group (SIG) in the greater Seattle area for several years. In the past couple of years I have really taken it up seriously and I have even created applications that read emails from the Outlook Inbox and import those emails and respond to the data found in the emails as well as automation data transfer between Access, Excel and Word. I'm really proud of my latest accomplishment which is creating an application that retrieves data from an accounting program's data files and communicates with that program's COM application to export sales order information from the Access application and imports that data into the accounting program thus eliminating the dual entry that client had to do before. I read in this discussion thread that other professionals consider Access to be a lighweight application. I've taken a look at the VB .NET that came with my Visual Studio Tools for the Microsoft Office System (I got so I can create run-time distributions of my Access applications) and it seem to have a lot more limitations on its abilities than Access does. The only thing I can see that VB .NET has going for it is that it can create .exe files. But my mde files from Access along with the runtime version of Access does just fine. I see a long future yet for Access. Remember back when the rumour mill said that Access and FoxPro would eventually merge? I see a Visual Fox Pro out there, in fact my Access application connects to VFP tables using ODBC, but I don't see the two merging. Being a casual member of an Access SIG these days I don't make it to a lot of meetings, but I still see plenty of Access developers out there. Perhaps they are shy? I'm contually learning new things with Access and I'm continually amazed at its abilities such as creating XML files using the Write # statement. Ted Access Developer and proud of it. > Therefore, it is my opinion that some of the .NET people you have > turned down may in fact be completely qualified for working on > your Access databases, and that they simply call themselves > something different than "Access developer". I can't imagine that .NET developers would have an understanding of using Access the way it is intended, with bound data. They are likely to be looking for complicated data grids, and want to do things mostly unbound and avoiding Jet because they have prejudices built up from working in a different environment.  SignatureDavid W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/ usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/ > I can't imagine that .NET developers would have an > understanding of using Access the way it is intended, > with bound data. That's been the case for Access' whole life... if the people came from what was considered a "normal developer" background, they were "babes in the woods" with regard to databases. They didn't understand Queries or SQL with Joins, so did a lot of unnecessary work. Add to that the problem that the VB and C/C++ interface to Jet didn't work well with bound controls... Actually, .NETters may be a little more enlightened, as Microsoft has included SQL Server in the ".NET" and "developer" categories. The DBAs and SQL Server developers have helped the VB.NET and C# crowd to understand "database" to some degree. On the other hand, I am not sure that the decision to enhance SQL Server by including the .NET languages along with T-SQL wasn't a holdover from the "Duh, whutz a database?" days. > They are likely to be looking for complicated data > grids, and want to do things mostly unbound and > avoiding Jet because they have prejudices built up > from working in a different environment. Yep, I occasionally attend some meetings where .NET is discussed and it amazes me that some presumably-knowlegeable business developers act as if "glitz and glitter" and non-standard ways of presenting data to the user actually are useful in solving business problems. Larry Linson Microsoft Access MVP > > I can't imagine that .NET developers would have an > > understanding of using Access the way it is intended, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > the .NET languages along with T-SQL wasn't a holdover from the > "Duh, whutz a database?" days. I agree with all of that. But none of it has anything to do with *data-bound* controls, which until recently, were hardly found at all in any MS products other than Access. Well, that's not entirely true -- there have been data-bound controls for VB, but my understanding was that they wree substantially harder to use than Access's bound forms/controls, and that many non-Access developers just didn't have the right kind of thinking for bound data. This is where the WE MUST USE UNBOUND FORMS!!!! hysteria comes from, I think, as well as the idiotic resistance to Jet. > > They are likely to be looking for complicated data > > grids, and want to do things mostly unbound and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > presenting data to the user actually are useful in solving > business problems. I'm just going on what I read of the technologies and the kinds of issues that people coming to this newsgroup seem to bring. Acess is different. And in a good way. But many of them can't abandon habits of that that they've acquired in the other development environments. In those other environments, I have not doubt that their habits are superb and crucial to getting things done efficiently. With Access, they have to change they way they think, or they will always end up fighting against the basic architecture of the whole development platform. Thus, I don't really think that the community of .NET developers is going to be a fertile ground for finding potential Access developers, except insofar that some portion of them will be quite smart and adaptable and have a strong understand of database interaction that will carry over nicely into Access. But I don't know that there will be any higher numbers of those types of people than there always have been in any non-Access development environment. SignatureDavid W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/ usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/ > . . . there have been data-bound controls for VB, > but my understanding was that they were > substantially harder to use than Access's bound > forms/controls, and that many non-Access devel- > opers just didn't have the right kind of > thinking for bound data. Both of these are _under_statements, I think. The VB data bound controls not only were harder to use, they didn't work all that well... and that difficulty was compounded by the "non-bound-data" thinking of most VB developers. Larry Linson Microsoft Access MVP The VB (classic) data bound controls/methods are buggy and to be honest a nightmare to implement. When I started doing VB database stuff I used the data bound controls and spent 3 times as long (at least) working round the bugs than I do by just doing everything unbound. The problem is, as you say, people coming the other way don't understand that Access was written to be used in bound mode and does it extremely well. SignatureTerry Kreft > > > I can't imagine that .NET developers would have an > > > understanding of using Access the way it is intended, [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > types of people than there always have been in any non-Access > development environment. Per Terry Kreft: >The VB (classic) data bound controls/methods are buggy and to be honest a >nightmare to implement. > >When I started doing VB database stuff I used the data bound controls and >spent 3 times as long (at least) working round the bugs than I do by just >doing everything unbound. Secondhand quote from an MS rep: "Bound controls are the spawn of Satan." Probably at least partially tongue-in-cheek... but still... SignaturePeteCresswell > Per Terry Kreft: >>The VB (classic) data bound controls/methods are buggy and to be [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Probably at least partially tongue-in-cheek... but still... Some of the people who are most ignorant of Access are employees of Microsoft. SignatureDavid W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/ usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/ > I'd like to open a discussion about the state of the industry. For the > past year, I've been unable to find competent Access developers [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > -TC TC, I don't have a base of HR knowledge or experience upon which to draw to answer your questions. I can't help wondering, nonetheless, if the change that you are describing might not be more indicative of an increase in your demand for skilled people than any sort of reduction in the supply. My impression, from perusing job postings, is that there is indeed a lot more demand for "glamour" skills such as .NET. I don't see a lot of companies looking for Access coders. SignatureRandy Harris tech at promail dot com I'm pretty sure I know everything that I can remember. IMO, MS has enhanced its promotion of Access as a route through which non-professionals can develop professional-like applications and, again IMO, it seems that more and more non-professionals are taking this route. In Comp.Databases.Ms-Access the great majority of their (the non-professionals) questions betray poor manners, incompetence, laziness, stupidity and lack of education. Many are quite unwilling to be clear, to explain, or to listen. What capable and self-respecting person would want to join such a group? I became a member of the group (Access Developers) when there were many bright, capable and proud Access Developers, and when there was pride in new ideas. I think the number of such persons is, perhaps, less than twenty per cent of its peak, and the pride is almost non-existent. Many of those remaining have little to contribute except the same tired ideas they have repeated over and over again, since they learned them from someone else who has moved on, and some persons here with the strongest reputations have never contributed an original idea to the Access community. What capable and self-respecting person would want to join such a group? I consider myself an Access Developer. But the last Access application I sold was delivered more than three years ago and I wouldn't consider seeking Access work today. Today I am working with Classic ASP, HTA, MS-SQL, ADO, JavaScript and Dynamic HTML. Perhaps, my days with Access are numbered, or already over. Where did Dev, Keri, Pete, Rebecca, Dimitri, Clive, John, Radu, Gary, George, Chris, Paul, Vanderghast go? Was their collective brilliance ever replaced? > IMO, MS has enhanced its promotion of Access as a route through which > non-professionals can develop professional-like applications and, again [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > George, Chris, Paul, Vanderghast go? Was their collective brilliance > ever replaced? Lyle, Many of your postings are cryptic or weird and your sense of humour and political leanings are hard to understand. Sometimes, I guess, you post after a drink or two and don't find your own postings so funny in the morning. However, part of what you say here rings sad but true. > Lyle, > Many of your postings are cryptic or weird and your sense of humour and > political leanings are hard to understand. Sometimes, I guess, you post > after a drink or two and don't find your own postings so funny in the > morning. However, part of what you say here rings sad but true. Which part? > Lyle, > ... Sometimes, I guess, you post after a drink or two .... Are you the guy up on the hill with the binoculars? [snip] > Where did Dev, Keri, Pete, Rebecca, Dimitri, Clive, John, Radu, Gary, > George, Chris, Paul, Vanderghast go? [snip] Perhaps they got new ideas that didn't involve Access. SignatureI don't check the Email account attached to this message. Send instead to... RBrandt at Hunter dot com > Where did Dev, Keri, Pete, Rebecca, Dimitri, Clive, John, Radu, Gary, > George, Chris, Paul, Vanderghast go? They've all moved to Greece and are living with the gods on Mt. Olympus. Their brilliance was blinding ordinary people. > I became a member of the group (Access Developers) when there were > many bright, capable and proud Access Developers, and when there [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > moved on, and some persons here with the strongest reputations > have never contributed an original idea to the Access community. This is so much bullshit unless you name names, Lyle. I completely disagree with it. Solutions to a set of problems are unlikely to change over time if the underlying application they are hosted in has not changed significantly. Since A97, there have been no truly major changes in the basic functionality of Access as a Jet client. Thus, solutions that worked great way back when still work just great. Now, Access has added many other features, but about the only one that has any value is the use of ADO with SQL Server. Most all the other new Access features (notably, ADPs) have been abandoned as unusable even by those, like you, were their ardent defenders when they first came out. This means that a major core of Access development is still Access with Jet back ends, and this has been the case for about 10 years. It should not be surprising, then, that a lot of solutions that worked in 1996 still work in 2006. Why would someone try to come up with some creative different way to solve a problem just because the known solution has been around for a long time? Is this a part of your rusty code argument again? SignatureDavid W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/ usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/ >>I became a member of the group (Access Developers) when there were >>many bright, capable and proud Access Developers, and when there [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > I completely disagree with it. This is a example of code that was thought to be so brilliant by the pioneers of Access that it needed to be copyrighted. '***************** Code Start ******************* 'This code was originally written by Dev Ashish 'It is not to be altered or distributed, 'except as part of an application. 'You are free to use it in any application, 'provided the copyright notice is left unchanged. ' 'Code Courtesy of 'Dev Ashish ' Function fIsFileDIR(stPath As String, _ Optional lngType As Long) _ As Integer 'Fully qualify stPath 'To check for a file ' ?fIsFileDIR("c:\winnt\win.ini") 'To check for a Dir ' ?fIsFileDir("c:\msoffice",vbdirectory) ' On Error Resume Next fIsFileDIR = Len(Dir(stPath, lngType)) > 0 End Function '***************** Code End ********************* >>>I became a member of the group (Access Developers) when there >>>were many bright, capable and proud Access Developers, and when [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > '***************** Code Start ******************* > 'This code was originally written by Dev Ashish [snip] But Dev is one of Lyle's Great Ones Who Once Walked the Earth here among us mere mortals! How could this be!!!!! SignatureDavid W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/ usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/ > But Dev is one of Lyle's Great Ones Who Once Walked the Earth here > among us mere mortals! Yes, he is. I think it is not fair that Dev should be held up to ridicule beause of an opinion I ventured. **** A function which can be used to check the existence of either a file or a directory is quite useful, in my opinion. **** It seems there is some agreement among those who write about Access on the web. Web Results 1 - 10 of about 115 for fIsFileDIR. (0.02 seconds) Searched all groups Results 1 - 10 of 48 for fIsFileDIR. (0.11 seconds) **** But perhaps the copyright was forgotten. Web Results 1 - 9 of about 17 for fIsFileDIR Dev Ashish. (0.04 seconds) Searched all groups Results 1 - 10 of 10 for fIsFileDIR Dev Ashish (0.08 seconds) **** In any case I shall be waiting and watching for the superior function. > A function which can be used to check the existence of either a file or > a directory is quite useful, in my opinion. > **** Lyle, it's the thinest of thin wrappers around the Dir() function. A name change. >In any case I shall be waiting and watching for the superior function. I'll try to think up a better name. > Lyle, it's the thinest of thin wrappers around the Dir() function. True. But, if it were not for that entry on the Access web a number of years ago (98 or 99, I believe), I would not have been able to do some of the things I did then. So I'm grateful it was there for me when I needed it. Now of course, it takes more effort for me to sneeze than it does to use the dir() function. But not back then. And I think the comments on it you're sort of disparaging were just standard bolierplate (a ha! Thanks to Terry for explaining that term to me a few months ago!) 8) SignatureTim http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~tmarshal/ ^o< /#) "Burp-beep, burp-beep, burp-beep?" - Quaker Jake /^^ "Whatcha doin?" - Ditto "TIM-MAY!!" - Me > I think it is not fair that Dev should be held up to ridicule beause of > an opinion I ventured. My ridicule was triggered by the copyright notice in that trivial piece of code. I see now, after browsing the site at mvps for a bit, that the copyright notices are probably something that was decided should be put in all the code posted there. You just don't get it do you. There are a handful of us who have published a lot of code over the years. If we do not include a copyright notice then several things are guaranteed to happen. 1) Our code will be reposted on someone else's site as their own. 2) Our code will be packaged and sold on an Access Utilities CD. Does a notice of copyright stop every individual seeking to gain something from our work? Definately not, but it does stop some of them. Further it gives us some basis to go after the most blatant misuse of said code. Does the intellectual property of Dev's source code you posted warrant a notice of copyright? By itself, certainly not. As part of Dev's larger body of work...yes. As part of a routine to ensure each published function/project is copyrighted to try to protect against the two issues outlined above...yes. I would point out how this could happen to all of the source code you have posted over the years, but that's right, you haven't posted any. SignatureStephen Lebans http://www.lebans.com Access Code, Tips and Tricks Please respond only to the newsgroups so everyone can benefit. >>>I became a member of the group (Access Developers) when there were >>>many bright, capable and proud Access Developers, and when there [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > End Function > '***************** Code End ********************* > I would point out how this could happen to all of the source code you have > posted over the years, but that's right, you haven't posted any. Nothing brilliant. You have no idea what you are talking about, which is hardly surprising as you were not around at the time. You will notice that there is a similar notice attached to virtually every piece of code on the Access Web. This was something Dev did after the work of the people who contributed to the site and the work put in by Dev to build and maintain the site was ripped off by certain people. There was a discussion about the issue between the contributors at the time and it was decided that adding the notice you cite may act as a deterrent to further rip-off merchants. My personal opinion was and always has been if I post it then you can use it, but please try to remember to attribute, some people are a bit more protective of their code though. If you had any intention of presenting a balanced view of Dev's contributions you could have referenced the INetlib or any one of the other major pieces of code he has posted here or on his web site but of course your only intention was to try to appear smart, unfortunately you just come over as smart-arse. SignatureTerry Kreft <SNIP> > This is a example of code that was thought to be so brilliant > by the pioneers of Access that it needed to be copyrighted. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > End Function > '***************** Code End ********************* Per TC: >I'd like to open a discussion about the state of the industry. For the >past year, I've been unable to find competent Access developers >available for hire. I'm worried about that. I've been doing 100% MS Access development for about 12 years now. 10 years with Vanguard, the mutual fund. Couple years for various hospitals in the New Jersey/Pennsylvania area. Currently, a little over a year with another financial outfit called SEI. My clients ran out of money late last November. They *say* they'll have a few projects for me soon - but nothing's happening. What kind of jobs are you looking to fill? SignaturePeteCresswell Access is such a great tool, that many small/medium size business (or bigger ones too) develop their own application. They depend upon that application. Their business would be lost without it. It may not work all that well because they didn't think of everything that someone with more overall knowledge of the subject could have helped them with. At some point, they want to improve on the database they are using, but they are reluctant to move entirely to something else. After all, even if it could work better, what they have is sort of functional. These are the people who eventually start looking for some consultant to improve the Access database or develop a new one. A more high tech, sophisticated user might have selected a different tool to start off with. Don't get me wrong. I love Access. It's what I do. I stumbled into it though. I was a really good Access user who could manipulate macros, and then a need arose to learn some VBA code. Once the employer found out I could to this a little, more demands were put on me in that area. I eventually worked my way into a small business that I operate from my home. I got experience by doing, but I didn't set out to become an Access programmer. People who set out to become programmers usually study things which are know to be "real" programming languages. So that's why I think you're having trouble finding 'em. Linda > I'd like to open a discussion about the state of the industry. For the > past year, I've been unable to find competent Access developers [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > -TC Despite the malice you might have recently read in the newsgroups about me, I am a very good Access developer. Over the last few years, I have extensively provided help and support in the newsgroups. On a professional level, I have taught numerous courses in Access, Excel and Word. Currently, I am in business to provide customers a resource for help with Access, Excel and Word. I strive to see that my customers are well satisfied and my fees are very reasonable. I have provided help to business clients and also over 1100 Access users who came to me from seeing my name in the newsgroups. You can read some of the comments I have gotten from business clients and Access users below my signature line. SignaturePC Datasheet Your Resource For Help With Access, Excel And Word Applications Over 1100 users have come from the newsgroups requesting help. resource@pcdatasheet.com Here are some comments made by customers I Helped --- "Steve demonstrated creativity, efficiency and professionalism of the highest standard. His database programming expertise was invaluable to us. Steve was a pleasure to work with and displayed a team-oriented approach to work." Geordie -- Director of Information Services. "Wow. This is nice. Very nice. This should help us immensely! Thank you so much for your help." Kathy -- Educational Manager at a large Medical Center "I'm having a real hard time simplifying this stuff for myself and I'm pleading with my boss to take a loan or whatever we have to do to get you more hours to handle this properly. I love working with your guidance. It's almost as if I need you on the phone for every little thing that pops into my mind." John --- IT Manager ".....From that point, Steve, with my input, laid out the overall design and the steps towards the implementation of the final product which I delivered to my client just last week. Now, my client wants me to write additional database systems for them, thanks to Steve who made me a hero!!" Jim --- Developer "Steve is an unique find." Confidential Customer And here are some comments made by people from the newsgroups that came to me and paid me to help them --- I like it a lot. It does exactly what I want, very good job. Thankyou and I repeat GOOD JOB OK, Perfect, well done. See you when I need something more. Your very helpful email speaks volumes about your level of professionalism. I will definitely keep your contact information for anyone who needs these types of services - we very frequently get local businesses contacting us looking for exactly the type of service you provide. One word: Wow. I had no clue it could be such an "aesthetically pleasing" interface. I figured it'd just be a big chart. That's amazing. You've really helped me cause out a lot, and you've done a tremendous job with this demo. With this, I can more easily explain how a database could help us out. Thanks for looking ahead. That is the reason I really feel safe working with you. couple of the programmers who do work for me, need to be checked to told to do every step of the way. With you, I just need to tell you what I need to be done, and you will think ahead of all the problems that might occur in the process. > I'd like to open a discussion about the state of the industry. For the > past year, I've been unable to find competent Access developers [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > -TC <snipped resume> Before you believe all the nonsense that he wrote here look at: http://home.tiscali.nl/arracom/whoissteve.html (updated) Arno R For all who read this, gp back in this thread and read Lyle Fairfield's response. He asks, "Where did Dev, Keri, Pete, Rebecca, Dimitri, Clive, John, Radu, Gary, George, Chris, Paul, Vanderghast go? Was their collective brilliance ever replaced?" A person whose name you see associated with many of the examples in MVPS.Org/Access wrote to me not long ago and said "I rarely contribute to the newsgroup anymore. I just got tired dancing with the pigs". A frequent contributor to the newsgroup wrote not long ago to Arno R, "If you have anything to contribute to the group, contribute. Your war with Datasheet is simply pissing and moaning in the wind for the sake of nothing. Grow up and get a life." Later he referred to Arno R and some others as "losers" who contributes little or nothing to the newsgroup. The answer to Lyle's question is that Arno R, Keith Wilby, John Marshall, Randy Harris, Rob Oldfield and a few others have driven the collective brillance away from the newsgroup. SignaturePC Datasheet Your Resource For Help With Access, Excel And Word Applications Over 1100 users have come from the newsgroups requesting help. resource@pcdatasheet.com "PC Datasheet" <nospam@nospam.spam> schreef in bericht news:IzYzf.10314$ZA2.10156@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net... <snipped resume> Before you believe all the nonsense that he wrote here look at: http://home.tiscali.nl/arracom/whoissteve.html (updated) Arno R > The answer to Lyle's question is that Arno R, Keith Wilby, John Marshall, > Randy Harris, Rob Oldfield and a few others have driven the collective > brillance away from the newsgroup. The "collective brilliance" were not opposed to ripping new comers and dipshits like you a new one from time to time. There's nothing new about that. Like PeteCresswell above, I'm an Access developer who wouldn't mind helping you out. I'm a freelancer working from my home and have been working with Access from version 1.0. I also do VB, SQL Server, MySQL, PHP, etc. and never went to .NET because my clients didn't see the benefit (and frankly, neither did I). Anyway, are you looking for full-timers or can I help you from the comfort of my kitchen table and slippers? Ha ... you need to learn the art of working full time in your slippers and a comfy pair of sweats like me. Linda > Like PeteCresswell above, I'm an Access developer who wouldn't mind > helping you out. I'm a freelancer working from my home and have been [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Anyway, are you looking for full-timers or can I help you from the > comfort of my kitchen table and slippers? Our company is in constant hiring mode. Access development is 25-50% of our Custom Software division. We can still find them, but they are indeed less available than a few years back. My screener easily goes through a hundred resumes only to forward 5 to me. 1 of those makes it to an interview. I think many developers don't want to miss out on the .Net wave and become dinosaurs. As noted by others we clean up a lot of applications started by good-willing amateurs. -Tom. >I'd like to open a discussion about the state of the industry. For the >past year, I've been unable to find competent Access developers [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > >-TC I'm pleased to see so many thoughtful responses to my post. I must say, however, that you guys haven't given me much reason for optimism. Tom, I think I need to adopt a screening process like yours. Do you use an employment agency? -TC We vary our methods. We're about to try a different agency - this one is a service that places online ads and screens them for our criteria. Most of the time the screener is our receptionist. She will also do an initial email follow-up (salary range, a few pages of source code). -Tom. >I'm pleased to see so many thoughtful responses to my post. I must say, >however, that you guys haven't given me much reason for optimism. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >-TC Since the 1970s I have regularly used (Asc("Z") - Asc(UCase(LastName)) + 1) as the chief factor in determining who gets an interview. I agree it's a black art, and I have made spectacular mistakes. We often discuss our methodology, and seem to always come back to a more rational approach. We probably look as much for attitude as for knowledge. -Tom. >Since the 1970s I have regularly used (Asc("Z") - Asc(UCase(LastName)) >+ 1) as the chief factor in determining who gets an interview. I think (Asc("Z") - Asc(UCase(LastName)) + 1) is quite rational. I found that many of the A's who were (still) looking for work, had been considered by my organization and others, but nor hired. When there are a thousand applicants, we often start at the top as we consider which we might interview. And the order is often alphabetical. I found that many Z's had never had an interview or reply to their job applications. Some seemed very surprised when contacted. And among them were many stars. When someone asks my advice about finding employment my first suggestion is, "Change your last name to Aardvark." >Since the 1970s I have regularly used (Asc("Z") - Asc(UCase(LastName)) >+ 1) as the chief factor in determining who gets an interview. Lyle Sometimes I have no idea what you are talking about. Sometimes I know exactly what you are talking about. I don't know which worries me more :-) Wayne Gillespie Gosford NSW Australia > I'd like to open a discussion about the state of the industry. For the > past year, I've been unable to find competent Access developers > available for hire. I'm worried about that. I have the opposite problem. There isn't much in the way of freelance in my neck of the woods (NW England), if it wasn't for my salaried job I'd starve :o) I have done the occasional freelance job but it's always been done remotely via the web. Keith. www.keithwilby.com "I have the opposite problem. There isn't much in the way of freelance in my neck of the woods (NW England)" I'll bear that out, I am now based in Dumfriesshire and if it wasn't for my clients dating back to when I was based in London and The South East I would not be able to make a living on the local economy of the Border counties. Indeed I am now more into property development rather than database development. Slainte Craig Alexander Morrison Here I am! I only want to do Access programming, I found plenty of people in my area that needed help fixing, improving and creating Access databases. Now a year ago we moved to a new area, due to my husband's job...I'm hard pressed to find ads for admin or clerical work that involves Access, let alone real Access work. I've talked to the employement outfits and they almost never get a call for Access...the one tech employment agency won't touch me because their clients always want more then Access. I just do Access and I've made a living of it...I hope to continue learning and working with Access. Any suggestions for finding Access work would be appreciated. A Continuing THANK YOU for the talented people of this group that are so giving of help and information. Debbie > I'd like to open a discussion about the state > of the industry. For the past year, I've been > unable to find competent Access developers > available for hire. I'm worried about that. I think it is a combination of problems. A few years ago, though not at the same time in all US locations, the business climate "cooled" rather drastically. In the Dallas - Fort Worth area, where I live, the pullback became more obvious around 2000. Along with that retrenchment, the need (and funding) for new projects or enhancements dwindled, so there were not as many jobs or contracts. I know competent Access developers who reported to me that they were working for half the rate they had gotten a year previously, and felt lucky to get any work. Microsoft launched their DotNet initiative, with massive hype, about that same time. I am sure it was devastating to some people in Microsoft to find that developers using their product were no longer recognized by the "powers-that-be" as being "real developers" but some sort of hobbyists... even though they were doing development all day long, every day. That advertising, attitude, etc. had a significant effect over time. Over time, the business climate has improved and the need for developers has increased. But, quite a few Access developers moved on to other careers, or to IT platform jobs, or to DotNet or Java, and have not found sufficient incentive to move back. Those of us who "rode it out" in one way or another are finding more work now than in the past few years. Without a good, steady supply of Access developers, there is less incentive for businesses to choose Access; without projects in Access, there is less incentive for developers to work in Access. (Unlike the heyday of classic VB, when, in my area, a good Access developer was likely to make more than a good VB developer, DotNet jobs tend to pay more because they tend to be concentrated in the "enterprise" market.) If you read the trade magazines, you'll find the emphasis, even when it is on extreme programming, pair programming, etc. to be at a level of coding detail that Access programmers just don't have to deal with. I doubt those object-oriented programmers are going to have the kind of database "smarts" that will let them move into an Access Rapid Application Development environment without a good deal of attitude adjustment. Larry Linson Microsoft Access MVP If you are having problems getting the right staff I would suggest you reconsider the database designers especially if they are good RELATIONAL database designers. They will get Access and should be able to be productive very quickly. Nearly 15 years ago it took me a long weekend to realise that I could give up DB2 and the corporate world and support the small business sector using Access/Jet. Any good relational database designer (especially with a smattering of VB) should be useful within a month. Slainte Craig Alexander Morrison Craig, I agree with you 100%, but...how many really good database designers are going to want to work in Access? As others in this thread have mentioned, the attitude portrayed in formal education is generally that Access is the tool of the evil user, not of the real database professional. I have supported nearly every database under the Sun, and I love Access for its ease of implementation and its flexibility. Unfortunately, it has earned a rather bad rap due to misuse, especially in larger organizations (cough, government). For a while, I went through an anti-Access phase until I was forced to immerse myself in an Access project. One day I realized that, used properly, Access is an amazing tool for businesses, even those large businesses under the right circumstances. Now, if we could figure out how to get the majority of the database world to give Access credit for what it can do, maybe TC wouldn't be having such problems finding quality people. On a side note, I would make developers my last choice for Access developer unless they have proven a solid understanding of relational database structure. 90% of the maintenance work I do is normalizing database structures created by VB and .NET developers and reworking the applications to improve performance. - GH > If you are having problems getting the right staff I would suggest > you reconsider the database designers especially if they are good > RELATIONAL database designers. > > They will get Access and should be able to be productive very > quickly. Relational db designers don't necessarily know anything at all about UI design. Access combines db design with application interface design, so you really need someone who understands both, or is capable of learning the basics of both very quickly. In my experience, the problem is usually that the good db designers don't understand proper UI design, and the good UI designers are clueless about db design. However, in most cases where I've needed help, I designed the schema, so I really only needed people with the UI skills. The only two I ever found locally ended up getting full-time jobs and couldn't continue to work with me (though I wasn't providing that much work to them, in any event). SignatureDavid W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/ usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/ I work for a large, well-known non-profit in New York City. We have an Access database that we give away for free to other non-profits to help them run their program work. It's a complex database, and is extremely customizable. Because of that, each installation and customization requires a knowledgeable Access developer. We're looking to grow the community of developers, around the world, who know Access and know our product. Because the database is open-source (in the sense that all of our code is available for free, and you're free to modify it), we are not looking to corral developers and have them all work through us. Instead, we're looking for Access developers to work on their own, with the support of the developer community, charging their own rates, building (and building upon) their own reputations as developers. We've experienced a similar difficulty in finding really good Access developers. Jeremy Per jeremygetsmail@gmail.com: >. It's a complex database, and is >extremely customizable. Because of that, each installation and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >who know Access and know our product. Because the database is >open-source (in the sense that all of our code is available for free So, you gonna tell us where to find said code or just leave us hanging? ...-) SignaturePeteCresswell Pete, I was hoping people would get in touch with me off list, so that I wouldn't be spamming the world with this... ;-) Jeremy -- Jeremy Wallace Fund for the City of New York > Pete, > > I was hoping people would get in touch with me off list, so that I > wouldn't be spamming the world with this... > ;-) Jeremy, I don't think that posting a link to your site would be regarded as spam :-) Keith. Fair enough. http://metrix.fcny.org is where you can get information and download the full product. If you have any questions, please feel don't hesitate, though I'd rather not hijack the thread. You can get in touch with me at this address or at the standard firstInitialLastName at fcny dot Oh Are Gee. Jeremy -- Jeremy Wallace Fund for the City of New York Ugh. It seems the installers that were up there since Monday were unrunnable for some reason. They have been replaced. Sorry for any hassle. Jeremy -- Jeremy Wallace Fund for the City of New York > Ugh. It seems the installers that were up there since Monday were > unrunnable for some reason. They have been replaced. Sorry for any > hassle. Ah, I thought I was doing something wrong! I'll try again tonight. Keith. |
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