MS Access Forum / General 1 / January 2006
MS Access: a true RDBMS
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sinister - 01 Jan 2006 12:22 GMT Is MS Access a true RDBMS?
Douglas J. Steele - 01 Jan 2006 12:25 GMT What's your definition of a "true RDBMS"? I don't believe any DBMS exists that implements all of the rules.
 Signature Doug Steele, Microsoft Access MVP http://I.Am/DougSteele (no e-mails, please!)
> Is MS Access a true RDBMS? sinister - 01 Jan 2006 19:34 GMT > What's your definition of a "true RDBMS"? I don't believe any DBMS exists > that implements all of the rules. Well, for one, is there a DB server that maintains the DB?
>> Is MS Access a true RDBMS? David W. Fenton - 01 Jan 2006 20:01 GMT >> What's your definition of a "true RDBMS"? I don't believe any >> DBMS exists that implements all of the rules. > > Well, for one, is there a DB server that maintains the DB? That's not part of any definition of RDBMS, which is a mathematical concept.
Implementation is irrelevant to status as a true RDBMS.
I suspect you're just a troll, since anyone with the capability to frame the question in this regard knows the answer to the question of whether there's a Jet server.
<PLONK>
 Signature David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/ usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
sinister - 01 Jan 2006 22:05 GMT >>> What's your definition of a "true RDBMS"? I don't believe any >>> DBMS exists that implements all of the rules. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > That's not part of any definition of RDBMS, which is a mathematical > concept. Uh, no.
From _Fundamentals of Database Systems_, Elmasri & Navathe, 2nd edition, p. 2: "A database management system (DBMS) is a collection of programs that enable users to create and maintain a database."
You're referring to the relational _data model_, which is indeed a mathematical concept.
> Implementation is irrelevant to status as a true RDBMS. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > <PLONK> Larry Linson - 03 Jan 2006 16:03 GMT > Uh, no. > > From _Fundamentals of Database Systems_, Elmasri & Navathe, 2nd edition, p.
> 2: "A database management system (DBMS) is a collection of programs that > enable users to create and maintain a database." There's certainly nothing in the definition you quote that requires a "server DB", only a "collection of programs".
The Jet database engine may, even without the Access front end, fulfill that definition -- because with a number of different "tools" you can use Jet to enable users to create and maintain a database. You can do so with most any software that uses VBA, with the separate VB product (classic or .NET), various versions of C, Delphi, and others. Certainly the combination of Access (the user interface and development tool) and Jet (the database engine) satisfies the definition.
Jet is a "file-server" database engine as opposed to what is normally considered a "server" database engine (e.g., Microsoft SQL Server, Oracle, Informix, etc.).
Larry Linson Microsoft Access MVP
David W. Fenton - 03 Jan 2006 20:20 GMT >>>> What's your definition of a "true RDBMS"? I don't believe any >>>> DBMS exists that implements all of the rules. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > You're referring to the relational _data model_, which is indeed a > mathematical concept. You asked a question about an RDBMS and supply a definition of a DBMS to refute my statement.
Are you an idiot or a mere troll?
Secondly, even your definition does not require tha the "collection of programs" be running on different machines, or that the data handling be divided between different modules. Jet itself has separate libraries for handling data (the Jet DLLs are programs separate from Access for processing the data), they just can't be run on a remote machine.
Your question is nonsense to begin with since you don't provide any context for your definition of RDBMS. It's like asking "how long is a piece of string?"
 Signature David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/ usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
Larry Linson - 10 Jan 2006 04:27 GMT > . . . It's like asking "how long is > a piece of string?" 'Bout 'leven.
:-) Lyle Fairfield - 01 Jan 2006 14:40 GMT Why does jello have a smell when you add the powder in the water, but when it "gels" the scent virtually disappears? Can an unborn baby fart or burp? If a baseball player hits a home run over the fence, but then dies before he can run around the bases, does the home run count? If a General is a higher ranking officer than a Major, then why is a major illness worse than a general illness? Why don't they make Root Beer flavored ice cream? Wouldn't it be better than root beer floats? Why is there never a full English dinner or tea but there is always a full English breakfast? What is the point in saying "may I ask" and then follow it up with a question? Is it possible to be allergic to water? When an atheist swears on a Bible before they testify in court do they have to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth since they don't believe in God? Why do cats like to dig their paws into something before they lay down on it? If a pack of gum says that each piece is 10 calories, is that amount just chewing the gum, or also for swallowing it? Why is there a little countdown (like 8, 7, 6, 5, 4) near the bottom of the copyright info page in the beginning of many books? Why does the Easter bunny carry eggs? Rabbits don't lay eggs. How come only your fingers and toes get wrinkly in the shower and nothing else does? Isn't it weird that all year round your parents tell you not to play with fire, but on Independence Day they hand you a package of explosives, a lighter, and say have fun? Are tomatoes fruits or vegetables? How come lotion is colored, but when you put it on, it doesn't turn your skin that color? Doesn't a lightning rod on top of church show a lack of faith? Are there pink lemons that make pink lemonade? Why do we say "heads up" when we actually duck? What's a question with no answer called? How do "do not walk on grass" signs get there? When a store has double doors why do they only let you use one of them? If there was a crumb on the table and you cut it in half, would you have two crumbs or two halves of a crumb? "What was Captain Hook's name before he had a hook for a hand?" Do the actors on Unsolved Mysteries ever get arrested because they look just like the criminal they are playing? Do bald people get dandruff? Why doesn't baking soda freeze? What if you were to ask a genie to grant you more than three wishes for one of you wishes? If you made biscuits with chocolate milk instead of regular milk, would they taste chocolaty? If you rented a movie and were late returning it and then you died would someone you knew or a family member have to pay the late fee? Can a person with no ears wear glasses? Do the actors in the re-enactments on Americas most wanted, ever get arrested (because they were seen on TV portraying the criminal)? Are people who are allergic to nuts allergic to coconuts too? 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How come we say 'It's colder than hell outside' when isn't it realistically always colder than hell since hell is supposed to be fire and brimstone? Why is it that if something says, "do not eat" on the packaging it becomes extra tempting to eat? Why are people so scared of mice, yet we all love Mickey Mouse? Wouldn't it be smart to make the sticky stuff on envelopes taste like chocolate? Why are the commercials for cable companies on cable but not on regular television? Don't they want the people without cable to buy the cable? "Have you ever noticed that if you rearranged the letters in mother in law, they come out to Woman Hitler?" Isn't it funny how the word 'politics' is made up of the words 'poli' meaning 'many' in Latin, and 'tics' as in 'bloodsucking creatures'? Why is it that when things get wet they get darker, even though water is clear?? Why is it that when you get out of a swimming pool, your urine is hotter when you use the restroom? Can mute people burp? 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Why can't you get a tan on your palms? If your sick for one week and on one of those days they had to cancel school because of snow, do you have to make up that day in June? Why do dogs sniff other dog's bottoms to say hello, why don't they just bark in their face or something? Why do companies offer you "free gifts?" Since when has a gift NOT been free? If something "goes without saying," why do people still say it? You know the expression, "Don't quit your day job?" Well what do you say to people that work nights?
Darryl Kerkeslager - 01 Jan 2006 15:01 GMT > How come only your fingers and toes get wrinkly in the shower and > nothing else does? In a really cold shower, something else does ...
> If there was a crumb on the table and you cut it in half, would you > have two crumbs or two halves of a crumb? Two crumbs, which are infiinitely divisible.
> Do Jewish vampires avoid crosses or Stars of David? Not possible. Eating people is not Kosher.
> Can you make a candle out of your earwax? I'll get back to you on this one in a week or so ...
> Why is there that little space inside strawberries, as if it was meant > for a pit, and then the seeds are on the outside? It's actually for the milk and sugar.
 Signature Darryl Kerkeslager
David W. Fenton - 01 Jan 2006 20:05 GMT > Why is there a little countdown (like 8, 7, 6, 5, 4) near the > bottom of the copyright info page in the beginning of many books? I can actually answer that one. It's so that they can indicate which printing it is. It's easier to put all the numbers on the initial films from which the plates for printing are created (or however it works) and then to remove one number at a time for each printing than it would be to add in a number that wasn't there originally.
So, the original printing had:
10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1
The next one:
10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2
The next:
10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3
And so forth.
 Signature David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/ usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
Dirk Goldgar - 01 Jan 2006 20:26 GMT >> Why is there a little countdown (like 8, 7, 6, 5, 4) near the >> bottom of the copyright info page in the beginning of many books? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > works) and then to remove one number at a time for each printing > than it would be to add in a number that wasn't there originally. Thanks, David, for a new factoid to add to my collection!
 Signature Dirk Goldgar, MS Access MVP www.datagnostics.com
(please reply to the newsgroup)
David W. Fenton - 01 Jan 2006 20:10 GMT > Are there pink lemons that make pink lemonade? No. Pink lemonade has traditionally been colored with cochineal, which makes pink lemonade non-vegetarian (since the dye is made from the crushed bodies of insects):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cochineal
However, I believe it's not widely used today in pink lemonade mixes, which probably use normal red dyes.
So, you can probably drink most pink lemonade if you're a vegetarian or Muslim or Jewish.
 Signature David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/ usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
David W. Fenton - 01 Jan 2006 20:16 GMT > Can you put a gay man in a straight jacket? No, but you can put him in a straitjacked.
See:
http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/319/straight/
 Signature David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/ usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
Dirk Goldgar - 01 Jan 2006 20:24 GMT >> Can you put a gay man in a straight jacket? > > No, but you can put him in a straitjacked. Is that like being hijacked? or maybe high-jacked?
 Signature Dirk Goldgar, MS Access MVP www.datagnostics.com
(please reply to the newsgroup)
ByteMyzer - 03 Jan 2006 00:18 GMT > Why isn't chocolate considered a vegetable, if chocolate comes from > cocoa beans, and all beans are a vegetable? Chocolate comes from the CACAO bean (pronounced ka-KOW), not a "cocoa" bean (Yes, they butchered that technicality in the movie "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory" but the book had it right). Otherwise, a good question.
rkc - 01 Jan 2006 15:12 GMT > Is MS Access a true RDBMS? Is it O.K. to use a checkbox for my answer?
Randy Harris - 01 Jan 2006 15:29 GMT > > Is MS Access a true RDBMS? > > Is it O.K. to use a checkbox for my answer? You mean so that you can indicate whether it is a male rdbms or a female rdbms?
Tim Marshall - 01 Jan 2006 19:51 GMT > Is MS Access a true RDBMS? Sounds like a homework assignment. 8) ;)
The answer lies in finding (the late) E.F.COdd's rules for a truly relational database. Google these terms.
Jet doesn't meet some of Codd's rules, but then again, there are database theorists who claim there is NOTHING out there that fully meets Codd's definition, though Jet misses a number of them.
But so what? There's two things to consider - is a database system truly relational _and_ is the designer using appropriate relational database principles?
In my mind, the latter question is by far the most important.
I've seen *lots* of Oracle database systems which many database theorists classify as a true RDBMS (and some also claim is not, because of their interpretation of Codd's rules) that are absolutely pathetic imitations of anything relational. Try the infamous "Banner" financial system for size - among other things, the absolute worst GUI I have ever seen - I'd much rather be using something banged out by a 12 year old on a Tandy in the early 80s. But there are lots of other examples I've seen local Oracle developers produce. ON the same token, I've seen lots of Jet applications which are quite faithful to principles of relational design.
So your homework question is moot. 8)
Please be honest and include my full name in your bibliography if you decide to use any of the above in your assignment - I'll just pop in my work sig followed by my usual newsgroup sig, thanks. ;)
Tim Marshall 709 737-2662 Manager, Work Control Facilities Management, Memorial University St John's, NL, Canada
 Signature Tim http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~tmarshal/ ^o< /#) "Burp-beep, burp-beep, burp-beep?" - Quaker Jake /^^ "What's UP, Dittoooooo?" - Ditto
sinister - 01 Jan 2006 22:07 GMT >> Is MS Access a true RDBMS? > > Sounds like a homework assignment. 8) ;) > > The answer lies in finding (the late) E.F.COdd's rules for a truly > relational database. Google these terms. I'm more interested in the "system" aspect than the "relational" aspect, which I'm already familiar with.
Is Access built around a client-server paradigm, or is every user who accesses the DB using their own instance of the server?
> Jet doesn't meet some of Codd's rules, but then again, there are database > theorists who claim there is NOTHING out there that fully meets Codd's [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > Facilities Management, Memorial University > St John's, NL, Canada Randy Harris - 01 Jan 2006 22:54 GMT If you're really looking for an answer to your question, go back to the very first reply in the thread. Answer Doug Steele's question - define what you consider a "true RDBMS". From your response to Tim, it sounds as though you have something particular in mind. I strongly suspect, however, you are more interested in starting an argument than getting an answer to your question.
 Signature Randy Harris tech at promail dot com I'm pretty sure I know everything that I can remember.
Tim Marshall - 01 Jan 2006 23:04 GMT > I'm more interested in the "system" aspect than the "relational" aspect, > which I'm already familiar with. > > Is Access built around a client-server paradigm, or is every user who > accesses the DB using their own instance of the server? HI again,
The definition of "true RDBMS", which is what you asked, is as I responded. No ifs, ands, or buts. 8)
As to your second question: it depends. I, and many others, write Access apps against a client server database, in my case, an Oracle server. Access comes _packaged_ with the MS Jet database engine, which is not a client/server package; it's a file server system. There are folks who can better answer that question (which, again, is not what you originally asked) than I can.
If you don't get any satisfactory answers and it seems one or two people have interpreted this thread as a troll, you can google comp.databases.ms-access for "file server" and you're sure to get some excellent posts on what that is all about.
Best of luck.
 Signature Tim http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~tmarshal/ ^o< /#) "Burp-beep, burp-beep, burp-beep?" - Quaker Jake /^^ "What's UP, Dittoooooo?" - Ditto
sinister - 03 Jan 2006 01:02 GMT >> I'm more interested in the "system" aspect than the "relational" aspect, >> which I'm already familiar with. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > comp.databases.ms-access for "file server" and you're sure to get some > excellent posts on what that is all about. Thanks; you pretty much answered my question.
And thanks for being one of the (very) few respondents who wasn't a total **shole.
Cheers,
S
> Best of luck. Lyle Fairfield - 03 Jan 2006 01:31 GMT And thanks to you for posting such a stimulating and intellectually demanding topic that has been hashed and rehashed in this and other groups no more than a thousand times. When you are happy with your understanding of it I trust you will move right on to: "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" Hope this helps!
CDMAPoster@FortuneJames.com - 05 Jan 2006 00:55 GMT > And thanks to you for posting such a stimulating and intellectually > demanding topic that has been hashed and rehashed in this and other [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" > Hope this helps! I know the answer to this one courtesy of Linus from the Peanuts strip:
Eight if they're skinny, four if they're fat.
So I guess the answer to the original question is:
It depends on the programmer!
James A. Fortune CDMAPoster@FortuneJames.com
Tim Marshall - 03 Jan 2006 02:13 GMT > And thanks for being one of the (very) few respondents who wasn't a total Well, the thing is, we occasionally get a cross post from one of the theory groups that tend to trash Access. I don't know about other specific groups, but on the oracle hierarchy, when someone asks a question pertaining to Access connectivity to Oracle or something related, almost inevitably one or more of the really experienced gurus will say something to the effect of "step 1, change your development platform". This is all crap, really. The difficulty with Access is that it is widely available and as a result of its ease of use (with at least beginner level stuff) you *do* get lots of people who know nothing about the relational model making up absolute garbage and calling themselves developers. This tends to slant the opinions of developers of other platforms, very unfairly, in my opinion. Access is an excellent development tool, regardless of what database engine is baing used.
Anyway, a lot of the snubbing of Access often starts with opening statements resembling your question. I think that's why you've gotten some negative responses. 8)
 Signature Tim http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~tmarshal/ ^o< /#) "Burp-beep, burp-beep, burp-beep?" - Quaker Jake /^^ "What's UP, Dittoooooo?" - Ditto
David W. Fenton - 03 Jan 2006 20:24 GMT > Anyway, a lot of the snubbing of Access often starts with opening > statements resembling your question. I think that's why you've > gotten some negative responses. He got negative responses because it was a bloody stupid question, precisely because he didn't provide any definitions to make it possible to *answer* the stupid question.
Of course, if he *had* provided definitions, then there'd have been no reason to *ask* the question.
Hence, my conclusion that he was a troll.
His tendency to call people a.sholes tends to confirm it for me.
And, of course, your answer was mistaken in the first place, since you answered the server question by talking about Access as a development platform, instead of as an RDBMS. You made a hash of the answer by mixing up Access and Jet, which is precisely the problem that you were criticizing in your citation of the Oracle yahoos.
 Signature David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/ usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
Tim Marshall - 04 Jan 2006 02:21 GMT > And, of course, your answer was mistaken in the first place, since > you answered the server question by talking about Access as a > development platform, instead of as an RDBMS. You made a hash of the > answer by mixing up Access and Jet, which is precisely the problem > that you were criticizing in your citation of the Oracle yahoos. Well, OK, but I would appreciate it if you would tell me where and how I was wrong.
Are you saying Access itself is a database? What is Jet then? I've based my answers on comments and discussion I've read here over the years. And that is that Access is a development platform that comes bpackaged with the Jet database engine and that it uses Jet as a means to manipulate records displayed, say in a datasheet or form. IE, when I use a Passthrough query to bring Oracle data from the server to a client screen and I use the excellent built in filters that I am using Jet to manipulate data on the client.
Thanks in advance to you or anyone that can straighten me out on this. Actually, given the tremendous amount of negativity on this thread, perhaps if you can explain my "hash" and what would make it right, then perhaps something positive can come of things, after all?
As far as the original poster goes, you may note I thought the question was a homework question. Nevertheless, I prefer to treat new people by assuming they are genuinely curious (or at VERY worst, frustrated) as opposed to hostile. It's actually the way I try to live in all aspects of life and I've done well from it. I'm a happy bird, at least. 8)
 Signature Tim http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~tmarshal/ ^o< /#) "Burp-beep, burp-beep, burp-beep?" - Quaker Jake /^^ "What's UP, Dittoooooo?" - Ditto
David W. Fenton - 04 Jan 2006 19:21 GMT >> And, of course, your answer was mistaken in the first place, >> since you answered the server question by talking about Access as [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Are you saying Access itself is a database? . . . Of course not. Access is a development platform that includes a database engine, Jet.
Any questions about whether or not Access is an RDBMS are, therefore, about Jet, not about the Access parts. Thus, the fact that Access can be used as a front end to client/server database engines is not an aspect of the database part of Access.
Thus, it's completely irrelevant to the original question.
> . . . What is Jet then? . . . In Access as client to a server database, Jet is only involved trivially, as a data access layer, not as a database engine. Thus, that scenario has nothing to do with the question "Is Access an RDBMS?"
> . . . I've > based my answers on comments and discussion I've read here over [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > from the server to a client screen and I use the excellent built > in filters that I am using Jet to manipulate data on the client. Nope. In that scenario, you're using Jet as a data access layer, not as a database engine. The actual data processing is not handled by Jet in that case (well, that's not entirely true if you write your SQL badly).
Actually, I hadn't thought about that -- Jet does take over what it can't figure out how to pass on to the server. This is, perhaps, a unique aspect of Jet, the way in which it works cooperatively with the remote server.
In any event, that's an aspect of Jet, not of the server database, so it's still not making Jet into a server db, which was the question you were attempting to answer (even though it was completely irrelevant to the original question about whether or not Access is an RDBMS).
> Thanks in advance to you or anyone that can straighten me out on > this. Actually, given the tremendous amount of negativity on this > thread, perhaps if you can explain my "hash" and what would make > it right, then perhaps something positive can come of things, > after all? The original two questions were confused, and, I believe, designed to provoke, so I'm not certain there's much to be gained from trying to answer them.
> As far as the original poster goes, you may note I thought the > question was a homework question. Nevertheless, I prefer to treat > new people by assuming they are genuinely curious (or at VERY > worst, frustrated) as opposed to hostile. It's actually the way I > try to live in all aspects of life and I've done well from it. > I'm a happy bird, at least. I think sinister is another of Don Mellon's sock puppets.
 Signature David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/ usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
Tim Marshall - 04 Jan 2006 22:22 GMT > Of course not. Access is a development platform that includes a > database engine, Jet. I thought this was what I said, though?
> Any questions about whether or not Access is an RDBMS are, > therefore, about Jet, not about the Access parts. Thus, the fact > that Access can be used as a front end to client/server database > engines is not an aspect of the database part of Access. Fair enough, I think I understand where you're coming from... I tend to think of Access in the development platform role against Oracle (my major use of Access) and wanted to show him/her that depending on what engine is used, it can be a seen as a client server arrangement versus a file server.
Come to think of it, what the hell *do* my above comments have to do with "a true rdbms"? I'm not sure, my wife tells me I talk too much sometimes...
> I think sinister is another of Don Mellon's sock puppets. I don't think so. I really think it was someone trying to answer a homework question or something perhaps from an Access unfriendly instructor?
 Signature Tim http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~tmarshal/ ^o< /#) "Burp-beep, burp-beep, burp-beep?" - Quaker Jake /^^ "What's UP, Dittoooooo?" - Ditto
sinister - 03 Jan 2006 22:20 GMT >> And thanks for being one of the (very) few respondents who wasn't a total > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > statements resembling your question. I think that's why you've gotten > some negative responses. 8) Perhaps.
IMHO the amount of bandwidth spent by people in this group demonstrating that they have extremely thin skins after *one* post on my part is pretty remarkable.
rkc - 04 Jan 2006 00:10 GMT > IMHO the amount of bandwidth spent by people in this group demonstrating > that they have extremely thin skins after *one* post on my part is pretty > remarkable. Is Access a true RDBMS system?
Lyle Fairfield - 04 Jan 2006 01:03 GMT That is why all my replies have been suksinct. Bandwidht is so important these days! I am getting these messages as bitts translated into native drumb rithms. When a "beat" is "sent" a device hears that and turns on a light bulb. The freakwency of the light bulb flashing is recorded on an continuously fed infinte roll of light senstive toilet papper as black smudge marks. This paper is fed through a modified data card reader which interprets the smudges and displays the messages in sefen aboriginal languages using a prehistoric picture symbol for each sylable. Then we get Uncle Felix to come over and he tells us what they say. To send we have to reverse the whole prosess. So it's important not to say anything beyond the bare minimum of what's needed. Sorry for any spelling errors here but Uncle Felix is pretty well smashed tonight!
Terry Kreft - 04 Jan 2006 10:22 GMT Lyle, I have a FelixSefen translation algorithm you might be able to use, mind you have to use a spearchucker on it afterwards as the Felix half of it is always smashed <g>.
The only problem with it, apart from that, is slight contextual errors. You know the one with the Ibis stood on one leg which can mean "you are a rare brilliance in the dark" or "you have the brain and mannerisms of a baboon" that's caused problems on occasion in e-mails to clients.
 Signature Terry Kreft
> That is why all my replies have been suksinct. Bandwidht is so > important these days! I am getting these messages as bitts translated [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Sorry for any spelling errors here but Uncle Felix is pretty well > smashed tonight! Randy Harris - 04 Jan 2006 01:25 GMT > IMHO the amount of bandwidth spent by people in this group demonstrating > that they have extremely thin skins after *one* post on my part is pretty > remarkable. You are being entirely disingenuous. You received replies to your original post that were entirely appropriate, including at least one that attempted to help answer your question. You disputed that reply and incorrectly suggested that DB server was somehow part of what constitutes a "true RDBMS". To support your erroneous argument, you provided a book definition of something other than what you had originally asked about. You then went on to call people a.sholes. Now you suggest that people have "extremely thin skins after *one* post on my part". It was certainly not one post that caused people to take offense. If you had been honest in your questions in the first place, you would have received meaningful answers.
 Signature Randy Harris tech at promail dot com I'm pretty sure I know everything that I can remember.
Randy Harris - 03 Jan 2006 02:34 GMT > >> I'm more interested in the "system" aspect than the "relational" aspect, > >> which I'm already familiar with. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > And thanks for being one of the (very) few respondents who wasn't a total > **shole. You show up in this newsgroup, calling yourself sinister, asking a question for which you get several appropriate answers, then insist that wasn't the question you wanted answered, you were already familiar with that, but something entirely different. Based on that, everyone is a "total **shole". Better look in the mirror pal.
 Signature Randy Harris tech at promail dot com I'm pretty sure I know everything that I can remember.
Tony Toews - 02 Jan 2006 01:14 GMT >Is Access built around a client-server paradigm, or is every user who >accesses the DB using their own instance of the server? Paradigm?!?! <shudder> A word I despise due to it's overuse in years and decades past.
Clearly you've never used Access.
Tony
 Signature Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP Please respond only in the newsgroups so that others can read the entire thread of messages. Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
Albert D.Kallal - 02 Jan 2006 02:31 GMT As others mentioned, not even Oracle qualifies as a relational database when you narrow the definition down to a strict cod's rules.
> Is Access built around a client-server paradigm, or is every user who > accesses the DB using their own instance of the server? yes, if you create a access project, you are using a 100% native client to server model.
(from the file menu...go file->Project using new data...
If you use the above..then you are creating access file that is a client - server paradigm.
So, ms-access lets you connect to your database engine of choice. Remember, it would be silly to call VB a database.
It is same for ms-access. ms-access is a software development tool like c++, or VB. You design and write code. The type of database you use with ms-access is your choice.
So, to answer you question...yes, ms-access can be a true client to server system....
 Signature Albert D. Kallal (Access MVP) Edmonton, Alberta Canada pleaseNOOSpamKallal@msn.com http://www.members.shaw.ca/AlbertKallal
salad - 02 Jan 2006 05:10 GMT > As others mentioned, not even Oracle qualifies as a relational database when > you narrow the definition down to a strict cod's rules. When it comes down to writing an application, I've never hemmed and hawed and contemplated my navel while pondering whether or not Access is a "true" relational database. I'll let the acadamics decide that in their ivory towers and let them get bogged down in the mundane while solving and adding nothing new.
Others have asked this question before. Sinister could simply do what normal people do and google his question.
sinister - 03 Jan 2006 01:05 GMT >> As others mentioned, not even Oracle qualifies as a relational database >> when you narrow the definition down to a strict cod's rules. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Others have asked this question before. Sinister could simply do what > normal people do and google his question. Did google. Didn't come up with that much on the first try or two.
Lyle Fairfield - 03 Jan 2006 01:26 GMT That statement is total crap!
Results 1 - 10 of about 26,800 for true rdbms MS-Access. (0.06 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 19,000 for true rdbms JET. (0.04 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 50,200 for true Relational Database Management System MS-Access. (0.19 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 831,000 for true Relational Database Management System JET. (0.17 seconds)
salad - 03 Jan 2006 05:10 GMT > That statement is total crap! > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Results 1 - 10 of about 831,000 for true Relational Database Management > System JET. (0.17 seconds) Sinister was looking under Google Images.
David W. Fenton - 02 Jan 2006 19:40 GMT > As others mentioned, not even Oracle qualifies as a relational > database when you narrow the definition down to a strict cod's [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > yes, if you create a access project, you are using a 100% native > client to server model. This is a ludicrous question. If you're using Access to connect to SQL Server (or some other client/server db engine), then Access is *not* being used as an RDBMS at all -- it's just an application development platform.
The question of whether "Access is an RDBMS" makes sense *only* if you're limiting the discussion to Jet.
And in that case, issues of client/server become completely irrelevant because Jet cannot act as a server.
Nonetheless, this is completely irrelevant to any definition of RDBMS that I've ever encountered. It is entirely an implementation question, whereas the definition of an RDBMS is a logical definition.
> So, to answer you question...yes, ms-access can be a true client > to server system.... Your answer makes a complete hash of the distinction between Jet and Access and of the basic issues at hand in this discussion.
 Signature David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/ usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
Terry Kreft - 03 Jan 2006 12:06 GMT Yes, if you take out the word true, but then there isn't a true RDBMS system out there.
 Signature Terry Kreft
> Is MS Access a true RDBMS?
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