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MS Access Forum / General 1 / December 2005MS Access forum
Does anyone know a good site where I can find a MS Access forum so I can get additional info about dB design with Access. Not here. "Experts" to busy "Yelling" at each other and calling newbies bad names. Maybe someday, but for now I recommend you look elsewhere... > Does anyone know a good site where I can find a MS Access forum so I > can get additional info about dB design with Access. > Not here. "Experts" to busy "Yelling" at each other and calling newbies > bad names. Maybe someday, but for now I recommend you look elsewhere... That's nonsense. > > Does anyone know a good site where I can find a MS Access forum so I > > can get additional info about dB design with Access. This is an excellent resource for novices. You'll find a lot of very helpful people here. Post your questions, you'll see.  SignatureRandy Harris tech at promail dot com I'm pretty sure I know everything that I can remember. It's not nonsense! This responder and his friends are continually polluting the newsgroups with their garbage. A frequent responder here calls the whole bunch of them "losers". SignaturePC Datasheet Your Resource For Help With Access, Excel And Word Applications Over 1050 users have come from the newsgroups trusting me and requesting help. resource@pcdatasheet.com >> Not here. "Experts" to busy "Yelling" at each other and calling newbies >> bad names. Maybe someday, but for now I recommend you look elsewhere... [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > This is an excellent resource for novices. You'll find a lot of very > helpful people here. Post your questions, you'll see. > This responder and his friends are continually polluting the newsgroups > with their garbage. So you admit to polluting the newsgroups? > A frequent responder here calls the whole bunch of them "losers". Yourself? John... Visio MVP This is another one of the bunch polluting the newsgroups with their garbage that the frequent responder to the newsgroups called "losers". There are still s few more out there. We'll see how long it takes for all of them to congrgate here. SignaturePC Datasheet Your Resource For Help With Access, Excel And Word Applications Over 1050 users have come from the newsgroups trusting me and requesting help. resource@pcdatasheet.com >> This responder and his friends are continually polluting the newsgroups >> with their garbage. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > John... Visio MVP Another reason is that shysters post incredible messages here about their free utilities; while they are free, there is often a better one that costs, of course! Believing as I do in the adage "if the foo sh*ts wear it" I expect your "shyster" reference is to me and my free utility at http://home.gci.net/~mike-noel/CompareEM - if not, please ignore this, otherwise I have to wonder - what the h*ll's wrong with FREE???? Cause if there is something wrong I'd like to fix it. FREE doesn't mean bad, and the fact that I also offer an enhanced version (which I do not promote here and have never before even mentioned in a post on this forum) does not detract from the value of what I am giving away. Why are you calling me a shyster? Am I being extremely wrong headed here?????????????????? > Another reason is that shysters post incredible messages here about > their free utilities; while they are free, there is often a better one > that costs, of course! > Believing as I do in the adage "if the foo sh*ts wear it" I expect > your "shyster" reference is to me and my free utility at [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Cause if there is something wrong I'd like to fix it. How long since you've updated it? Lyle has the opinion that old code that works fine somehow "rusts" and should be replaced with new code. Or, at least, that's what he's implied by criticizing working solutions posted here that use techniques that have worked in Access and VB for nearly 10 years. SignatureDavid W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/ usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/ It's gratifying to know that you know my opinion, even before I do, David. May I suggest that we use the acronym ILO for In Lyle's Opinion so that anyone else who is so gifted can make my opinion known easily? It's not really a commercial product, it's just a "packaging" of a utility I use in my own consultancy. I do corrective updates when people tell me about problems and enhancement updates when I need a new feature for my own deployments. It's probably been 6 months since I posted an update. > How long since you've updated it? Lyle has the opinion that old code > that works fine somehow "rusts" and should be replaced with new > code. Free is good. In Canada Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: a) freedom of conscience and religion; b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication; c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and d) freedom of association. I choose to exercise my right to these freedoms. On the other hand, when we post in CDMA we agree, or implicitly agree to be bound by its charter. It states The following are specifically forbidden in the CDMA newsgroup: * Advertising of any kind, even if the product is free, a demo, or otherwise. You may answer a question with a link to a commercial site which pertains to the question. You may also add a phrase and/or link in your signature. ... The problem with this rule is that there is no mechanism to help us decide if a commercial site pertains to a question. Since my site is about Access and all posts here should be about Access then, I suppose, I could argue that I could answer them all with a link to my site. I do not like sites which invite one to visit for a free utility and also advertise a more advanced one which is not free. It reminds me of "bait and switch" tactics. And I do not like someone who has contributed almost nothing to CDMA and who denigrates it. I do not like someone who e-mails implied threats to me. In other words, I do not like you. Is "shyster" too strong a word to describe someone who posts a link to his/her own site to answer questions which may or may not clearly pertain to the question? Is it too strong a word for someone who has posted here only a few times, has answered almost no technical questions (or none at all) and who has mentioned his free utility in the majority of his posts? I don't know. I do know that it reflects my opinion. I got pretty pissed off when I read this and drafted a nice long sarcastic reply, but you know what - life is too short - so I'll simply say: I don't know if I like you or not and it doesn't really matter. I read and occasionally contribute to this forum to learn about MS-Access and I value your contributions for technical insight without respect to what kind of person you happen to be. Perhaps one day you will even learn something from me (but probably not). ¡Felíz año nuevo! > Free is good. > [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > the majority of his posts? > I don't know. I do know that it reflects my opinion. > calling newbies > bad names. I don't recall seeing anything like that. Perhaps you can provide a thread subject? > Maybe someday, but for now I recommend you look elsewhere... For trying to steer a newbie away from a resource as good as cdma, I suggest you need a good yelling at. SignatureTim http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~tmarshal/ ^o< /#) "Burp-beep, burp-beep, burp-beep?" - Quaker Jake /^^ "Whatcha doin?" - Ditto "TIM-MAY!!" - Me Tim, You're chastising Mike for telling the truth but you ignore the rampant pollution of the newsgroups by Arno R and his bunch of losers. Start yelling where yelling is needed. If you and others yelled at those losers Mike would not be making his observation. Leave Mike alone for telling the truth!! SignaturePC Datasheet Your Resource For Help With Access, Excel And Word Applications Over 1050 users have come from the newsgroups trusting me and requesting help. resource@pcdatasheet.com >> calling newbies bad names. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > For trying to steer a newbie away from a resource as good as cdma, I > suggest you need a good yelling at. > Tim, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Mike would not be making his observation. Leave Mike alone for telling the > truth!! Are the "class acts" who came out against you now "losers" Steve? You can't ignore this question for ever. Answer it now. > You're chastising Mike for telling the truth No, I'm chastizing him for trying to chase away a newbie. Rather like standing at the edge of an oasis and telling a traveller looking for water there's none there. Contrary and nasty minded, actually. > but you ignore the rampant > pollution of the newsgroups by Arno R and his bunch of losers. The only "pollution" they are causing is protesting what they see as your abuse of the group. Assuming they don't know you personally and you are not a cruel person who killed their puppies when they were children, don't you think it interesting they focus their energy on you? Why would that be? Why would total strangers pick you out of all of us? > not be making his observation. Leave Mike alone for telling the truth!! I think you should leave Arno et al alone for telling the truth. You just don't seem to get it and it appears to me that you are soaking all this in and basking in it. I'll leave you to howl in the darkness. SignatureTim http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~tmarshal/ ^o< /#) "Burp-beep, burp-beep, burp-beep?" - Quaker Jake /^^ "Whatcha doin?" - Ditto "TIM-MAY!!" - Me > You just don't seem to get it and it appears to me that you are soaking > all this in and basking in it. IMO this is a good observation Tim. It seems that Steve kind of enjoys all this?? Every time things seem to have cooled down a bit Steve is the one who 'activates' the fire. It appears to me that he is very destructive at the moment. He thinks he will gain by doing this?? > I'll leave you to howl in the darkness. Indeed it seems best to totally IGNORE him I guess. I see no point in arguing with him. He simply does not want to understand. Arno R [nothing at all worth reading] If this kind of thing happens again, you're going in my kilfile along with Steve. SignatureDavid W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/ usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/ > If this kind of thing happens again, you're going in my kilfile > along with Steve. In fact it is not worth reading but ... Maybe if David continues to threathen people here who post something he does not like, people might start to beg him to be killfiled ... Arno R > If this kind of thing happens again, you're going in my kilfile > along with Steve. Eh? I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying it's OK for a poster to go chasing off newbies? I understand your frustration over this whole business of which this thread seems to be a spin off from the PCD debates. Perhaps it's the stress of the season getting to too many of us. I've spent more time the past couple of weeks participating in non-Access debates than is good. SignatureTim http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~tmarshal/ ^o< /#) "Burp-beep, burp-beep, burp-beep?" - Quaker Jake /^^ "Whatcha doin?" - Ditto "TIM-MAY!!" - Me >> If this kind of thing happens again, you're going in my kilfile >> along with Steve. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > spent more time the past couple of weeks participating in > non-Access debates than is good. Well, then -- STOP. You can't control Steve, but you *can* control yourself. Please, for everyone's benefit -- DO SO. SignatureDavid W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/ usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/ > Does anyone know a good site where I can find a MS Access forum so I > can get additional info about dB design with Access. There is nothing wrong with asking here. You'll most likely get the same high quality answers as you would get at any of the Microsoft sponsored newsgroups which all begin with Microsoft.Public.Access Microsoft.Public.Access.Forms Microsoft.Public.Access.TableDesign etc. If you have a newsreader, it is best to connect through that reader. If you only have access through the web, go to www.microsoft.com and click on links to Communities, then Newsgroups, then Office, finally Access. SignatureFred Please respond only to this newsgroup. I do not reply to personal e-mail Just agreeing with fred, but would like to add, to dbNovice, that this thread may well degenerate into another flamefest. If so, it has nothing to do with you. It's just an ongoing battle between PC Datasheet and reality. > > Does anyone know a good site where I can find a MS Access forum so I > > can get additional info about dB design with Access. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > click on links to Communities, then Newsgroups, then Office, finally > Access. > Just agreeing with fred, but would like to add, to dbNovice, that this > thread may well degenerate into another flamefest. If so, it has nothing to > do with you. It's just an ongoing battle between PC Datasheet and reality. I was hoping that might be avoided, that's why I did not respond to the post from the troll. SignatureRandy Harris tech at promail dot com I'm pretty sure I know everything that I can remember. Notice how the losers come in pairs!! SignaturePC Datasheet Your Resource For Help With Access, Excel And Word Applications Over 1050 users have come from the newsgroups trusting me and requesting help. resource@pcdatasheet.com >> Just agreeing with fred, but would like to add, to dbNovice, that this >> thread may well degenerate into another flamefest. If so, it has nothing [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > post > from the troll. Just can't help but ask - do you post references you these tirades on your website, so prospective clients can see what you're *really* like? Not that what I say will make any difference whatsoever, but don't you think provoking people and then responding to their attacks is a waste of time? I mean, don't you have something better to do? >> Just agreeing with fred, but would like to add, to dbNovice, that >> this thread may well degenerate into another flamefest. If so, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I was hoping that might be avoided, that's why I did not respond > to the post from the troll. If you two didn't discuss the subject, those of us who have Steve killfiled wouldn't know about it at all. Hint, hint. You can't put out a fire by pouring gasoline on it. SignatureDavid W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/ usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/ > >> Just agreeing with fred, but would like to add, to dbNovice, that > >> this thread may well degenerate into another flamefest. If so, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > If you two didn't discuss the subject, those of us who have Steve > killfiled wouldn't know about it at all. True. But it would also leave Steve free to abuse the newsgroups with no intervention. Both ways have their good and bad points, but I prefer not to just sit on the sidelines and ignore the fact that it's happening. > "David W. Fenton" <XXXusenet@dfenton.com.invalid> wrote in message >> If you two didn't discuss the subject, those of us who have Steve >> killfiled wouldn't know about it at all. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > but I prefer not to just sit on the sidelines and ignore the fact > that it's happening. Right now, your posts stirring the pot are much more of an annoyance to me than Steve's advertising, which I never noticed in the first place, and which I now don't see at all because I"ve killfiled him entirely. Grow up. Steve is not forcing you to read his posts. And one advertiser will not lead to an influx of spam. Steve has been posting this way for months now and there has been no upsurge in advertising in the newsgroup. Indeed, it is almost irrefutable that 99% of the advertising in the newsgroup is drive-by spam, posted by people who are not participants in the newsgroup. Steve is the only regular poster who advertises, against the policy of the newsgroup. I suspect that were a newbie to arrive with an ad in his sig, someone would point him to the FAQ and advise him not to advertise. 99% of those people would likely delete the advertising. The other 1% might say "well, Steve does it" and you could point them to Google to see the massive dispute over Steve's advertising and show the newbie that it's a bad thing. Problem solved, and there's no need to continue stirring the pot. Last of all, in *this* thread, Steve was *not* involved until you and your compatriots gratuitously introduced him into the thread. It's one thing to respond to Steve when he offends, it's entirely another to make a thread about Steve when he hasn't been participating in it. This latter is unconscionable in my opinion. SignatureDavid W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/ usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/ > Right now, your posts stirring the pot are much more of an annoyance > to me than Steve's advertising, which I never noticed in the first > place Yes you were totally blind indeed. > I suspect that were a newbie to arrive with an ad in his sig, > someone would point him to the FAQ and advise him not to advertise. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Problem solved, and there's no need to continue stirring the pot. No need for your posts indeed. In this thread alone I count 9! posts from you only... and not much you say here is worth reading... > Last of all, in *this* thread, Steve was *not* involved until you > and your compatriots gratuitously introduced him into the thread. This is *not true at all*. Obviously you have still problems with your eyes, and/or you are not reading the full thread. > It's one thing to respond to Steve when he offends, it's entirely > another to make a thread about Steve when he hasn't been > participating in it. This latter is unconscionable in my opinion. Your interfering here is 'stirring the pot'. But since you killfiled me you won't see this message. Others will I hope. Arno R "David W. Fenton" <XXXusenet@dfenton.com.invalid> schreef in bericht news:Xns972FA2840A41Af99a49ed1d0c49c5bbb2@127.0.0.1... >> Last of all, in *this* thread, Steve was *not* involved until you >> and your compatriots gratuitously introduced him into the thread. >This is *not true at all*. >Obviously you have still problems with your eyes, and/or you are not reading the full thread. David, Arno is absolutely right on this point. Perhaps you missed it because of having killfiled Steve. There had been no mention whatever of pcdatasheet or Steve in this thread until he chose to post his "loser" messages. SignatureRandy Harris tech at promail dot com I'm pretty sure I know everything that I can remember. > "David W. Fenton" <XXXusenet@dfenton.com.invalid> schreef in > bericht news:Xns972FA2840A41Af99a49ed1d0c49c5bbb2@127.0.0.1... [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > whatever of pcdatasheet or Steve in this thread until he chose to > post his "loser" messages. Yes, I discovered this after posting that. But if anything, it seems rather ironic to me that you'd be interested in citing that. The fact that I didn't know about Steve's post looks to me like the best recommendation for killfiling him -- if you don't see it, there's nothing to get upset about. But both sides here are equally resistant to reason, so I know it's a waste of time for me to continue the discussion, so: <PLONK> SignatureDavid W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/ usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/ > > "David W. Fenton" <XXXusenet@dfenton.com.invalid> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Grow up. There's a problem. I'm choosing not to ignore it, you are. Each approach has its place. I would however suggest that the 'ignore it' line is the one which smacks more of a lack of maturity. > Steve is not forcing you to read his posts. > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Problem solved, and there's no need to continue stirring the pot. I think you're misunderstanding the problem, or at least what you think I think it is. The problem is Steve. Nothing else. > Last of all, in *this* thread, Steve was *not* involved until you > and your compatriots gratuitously introduced him into the thread. > It's one thing to respond to Steve when he offends, it's entirely > another to make a thread about Steve when he hasn't been > participating in it. This latter is unconscionable in my opinion. I don't have any 'compatriots' on this issue. I have my opinion and what I do is due to that opinion. I'd say that your general idea in this paragraph is correct, and it's something that I would avoid doing. You may want to recheck the thread before you start blaming me for it. But getting into flames between those who ignore Steve, and those who oppose him by posting is a little pointless I think. Should we just agree to disagree on this one? >> > "David W. Fenton" <XXXusenet@dfenton.com.invalid> wrote in >> > message [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > There's a problem. I'm choosing not to ignore it, you are. . . . Well, ignoring it is not going to solve the problem, but the form of "not ignoring it" that you and your compatriots are indulging in is not going to solve the problem either, so I see nothing at all superior about your approach to the problem. > . . . Each approach > has its place. I would however suggest that the 'ignore it' line > is the one which smacks more of a lack of maturity. Killfiling Steve will mean you don't have to read his posts. You won't raise your blood pressure doing so. You won't see them so you won't spend your time responding to them (and raising your blood pressure further). Since you're not responding, then the newsgroup remains free of the clutter of these meta-threads. And my knowledge of human nature and observation of the history of this newsgroup suggests to me that nothing bad is going to happen from ignoring Steve's messages. It's not going to result in an influx of spam, nor an influx of new posters with advertising in their sigs (any poster who advertises will be told its not permitted, and since the vast majority of such posters will be people of good will, they will stop). >> Steve is not forcing you to read his posts. >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > I think you're misunderstanding the problem, or at least what you > think I think it is. The problem is Steve. Nothing else. And short of shooting Steve dead, you're not going to solve the problem. Indeed, Steve has dug in his heels and is more resistent to criticism and much more combative than he was at the beginning of the discussion. It's an old story in human history and on Usenet: you criticize someone for their behavior and instead of taking the behavior to heart, they dig in their heels and defend their actions (however indefensible those may be). The more they are criticized, the more then refuse to relent. If you stop pushing, it gives these people the opportunity to relent. And, of course, the pushing is never going to accomplish the stated goal, anyway, so it's just a massive waste of everyone's time. >> Last of all, in *this* thread, Steve was *not* involved . . . This is something I realized only later was untrue. I didn't see Steve's post because he was killfiled. Hint, hint. >> . . . until you >> and your compatriots gratuitously introduced him into the thread. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I don't have any 'compatriots' on this issue. . . . Keith and Randy, in this particular thread. > . . . I have my opinion and what I > do is due to that opinion. I'd say that your general idea in this > paragraph is correct, and it's something that I would avoid doing. > You may want to recheck the thread before you start blaming me > for it. As I said above, I realized after posting that I was in error -- I was blissfully unaware of Steve's provocation. I like remaining that way, and don't quite understand the enthusiasm for maintaining the crusade against him. > But getting into flames between those who ignore Steve, and those > who oppose him by posting is a little pointless I think. Should > we just agree to disagree on this one? Get a life. Killfile him and be done with it. SignatureDavid W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/ usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/ Fair enough. You are clearly unaware of the actual issue, and you don't care about it. Maybe you'd be better off not lecturing people about it until you do. Hi Rob, I guess you are just 'asking' to be the following person to be plonked by our 'big shot' here... ;-) Because: if you don't agree with DWF and not immediately back down when he tells you... that might be your fate. This seems to be specifically the case in threads he did not read fully. Arno R > Fair enough. You are clearly unaware of the actual issue, and you don't > care about it. Maybe you'd be better off not lecturing people about it > until you do. I have been trying so hard to stay out of these threads but this has pushed me over. That is unfair, DWF and I have had major rows over the years, I haven't killfiled him and he hasn't killfiled me (well maybe temporarily). David has made numerous reasonable (for him <g>) requests that the campaign against Steve stop within the NG before he elevated to "threats" to killfile. Why on earth you don't simply agree on a strategy to deal with Steve in the same way that an agreement to deal with DPM was made. In that way you can address Steve's actions in such a way that anybody can see but without disrupting the rest of the NG. Could I suggest that the following would be a reasonable strategy. When Steve posts in a thread where he is in contravention of the FAQ then 1) Make one response directly following his first post. (and I don't mean one each !) 2) After that leave it for that thread 3) Do not get into "discussions" with him 4) Make a complaint to his ISP Simple, effective, regains the moral high ground and stops the arguments between your "group" and everynody else. SignatureTerry Kreft Hi Rob, I guess you are just 'asking' to be the following person to be plonked by our 'big shot' here... ;-) Because: if you don't agree with DWF and not immediately back down when he tells you... that might be your fate. This seems to be specifically the case in threads he did not read fully. Arno R "Rob Oldfield" <blah@blah.com> schreef in bericht news:43a61a2e$0$23292$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk... > Fair enough. You are clearly unaware of the actual issue, and you don't > care about it. Maybe you'd be better off not lecturing people about it > until you do. > That is unfair, DWF and I have had major rows over the years, I haven't > killfiled him and he hasn't killfiled me (well maybe temporarily). What is unfair Terry?? He did killfile me for no other reason than a disagreement (in fact sort of the same way like he just killfiled Keith and Randy) David was wrong (in fact blind) in the specific thread where he plonked me, like he was wrong/blind this time also. But please let's not get into a fight or a discussion about DWF here Terry. At least I don't feel like that. I respect David's knowledge, but not his way of dealing with disagreements. > David has made numerous reasonable (for him <g>) requests that the campaign > against Steve stop within the NG before he elevated to "threats" to > killfile. Reasonable ??? <*big* grin indeed> > Why on earth you don't simply agree on a strategy to deal with Steve in the > same way that an agreement to deal with DPM was made. In that way you can [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > mean one each !) > 2) After that leave it for that thread In fact this is exactly what we agreed on. (This is essentially the idea of Rick Brandt in "A message to the community") We will post a message and a link to the website ASAP (but only ONE time in the same thread). So the OP has a chance to read (or ignore) the website. That should be enough. If the OP still wants to do business with Steve?? OK! We guess the website will be very effective. > 3) Do not get into "discussions" with him Indeed. For the rest let's all totally ignore PCDataSheet. This might bring some peace and rest back in these newsgroups. > 4) Make a complaint to his ISP I doubt this will help very much, but I might be wrong. I am afraid only numerous complaints will help. (Have you posted a complaint allready?) > Simple, effective, regains the moral high ground and stops the arguments > between your "group" and everynody else. Let's all get back to work indeed. Arno R That's why I've been avoiding this issue in the NG, although I of course have opinions on it, because it's inflammatory and I didn't want to get into heated discussions with people about a third party. What I thought was unfair was the apparent branding of David as having jumped straight to threats of killfiling. My perception is that David tends to killfile people in order to let the situation/himself/the other person (whichever of those) cool down. He then tends to remove people from his killfile, I may be wrong and if I am I'm sure David will tell me (probably tell me to keep my nose out and not talk for him as well, which unfortunately as a sentiment I'd probably have to agree with <g>). I tend to killfile people where it becomes obvious to me that we don't talk on the same wavelength and probably never will. Anyway, I've said more than I intended on this subject already, back to Access anybody? SignatureTerry Kreft "Terry Kreft" <terry.kreft@mps.co.uk> schreef in bericht news:CeCcnfE8wMjZGDveSa8jmw@karoo.co.uk... > That is unfair, DWF and I have had major rows over the years, I haven't > killfiled him and he hasn't killfiled me (well maybe temporarily). What is unfair Terry?? He did killfile me for no other reason than a disagreement (in fact sort of the same way like he just killfiled Keith and Randy) David was wrong (in fact blind) in the specific thread where he plonked me, like he was wrong/blind this time also. But please let's not get into a fight or a discussion about DWF here Terry. At least I don't feel like that. I respect David's knowledge, but not his way of dealing with disagreements. > David has made numerous reasonable (for him <g>) requests that the > campaign > against Steve stop within the NG before he elevated to "threats" to > killfile. Reasonable ??? <*big* grin indeed> > Why on earth you don't simply agree on a strategy to deal with Steve in > the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > mean one each !) > 2) After that leave it for that thread In fact this is exactly what we agreed on. (This is essentially the idea of Rick Brandt in "A message to the community") We will post a message and a link to the website ASAP (but only ONE time in the same thread). So the OP has a chance to read (or ignore) the website. That should be enough. If the OP still wants to do business with Steve?? OK! We guess the website will be very effective. > 3) Do not get into "discussions" with him Indeed. For the rest let's all totally ignore PCDataSheet. This might bring some peace and rest back in these newsgroups. > 4) Make a complaint to his ISP I doubt this will help very much, but I might be wrong. I am afraid only numerous complaints will help. (Have you posted a complaint allready?) > Simple, effective, regains the moral high ground and stops the arguments > between your "group" and everynody else. Let's all get back to work indeed. Arno R > My perception is that David tends to killfile people in order to > let the situation/himself/the other person (whichever of those) > cool down. He then tends to remove people from his killfile, I > may be wrong and if I am I'm sure David will tell me (probably > tell me to keep my nose out and not talk for him as well, which > unfortunately as a sentiment I'd probably have to agree with <g>). It depends on the poster. Worthwhile posters who show up regularly in interesting discussions will tend to get out of my killfile (though Lyle jumps in and out on a regular basis). But those who have no apparent value don't tend to ever leave the killfile. I would normally do a 30-day kill in a situation like this, but none of the posters involved have any memorable profile as valued contributors to the newsgroup, so they just went to the permanent killfile. And, let me point out, the suggestion you made is exactly what I recommended that they do (actually, I begged them to limit their responses to a single post), and that was weeks ago. One thing I'd add: if they'd use a FROM: address that's different from their usual to do it, those of us who aren't interested in reading those reponses can killfile on that address and still read their regular posts. But I don't think that's waht these people are actuallly interested in. They keep engaging with Steve over and over again, which suggests to me that this really isn't just about Steve's violation of the newsgroup charter. What it *is* about I really don't care. No one has ever had any more right to be provoked by a poster than I have, so I know what it's like to be constantly hit with something that annoys you a lot. But the *only* answer when you can't make the offender stop is to ignore him. SignatureDavid W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/ usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/ > It depends on the poster. Worthwhile posters who show up regularly > in interesting discussions will tend to get out of my killfile > (though Lyle jumps in and out on a regular basis). Actually, David, everyone you killfile is me. No, REALLY! They're just various persona I assume to harrass and annoy you. You don't think there's a real Arno or Keith or Randy, do you? LOL! That's you back in <g>. SignatureTerry Kreft >> It depends on the poster. Worthwhile posters who show up regularly >> in interesting discussions will tend to get out of my killfile [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > various persona I assume to harrass and annoy you. You don't think > there's a real Arno or Keith or Randy, do you? Oh, yeh, I'm well aware of that, as I said I've been trying to keep out of this whole thing but I have been keeping an eye on it. To be fair there was an attempt to use an alias but I think that got lost as the tone of the affair dropped and dropped. My belief is that people are people, and when someone is going out of their way to be insulting and obnoxious it's difficult to stay on course. I just think Steve did a very good job of provoking people to the point where they lost sight of their objective. Oh, I was here through all of that and you're right, ignoring is the only (personally) successful strategy in the situation you found yourself in. The major difference is though that I think you knew that virtually everybody in the NG was disgusted by the actions, accusations and downright libel of the other party and supported you. SignatureTerry Kreft <SNIP> > And, let me point out, the suggestion you made is exactly what I > recommended that they do (actually, I begged them to limit their [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > But I don't think that's waht these people are actuallly interested > in. <SNIP> > No one has ever had any more right to be provoked by a poster than I > have, so I know what it's like to be constantly hit with something > that annoys you a lot. But the *only* answer when you can't make the > offender stop is to ignore him. > Oh, I was here through all of that and you're right, ignoring is > the only (personally) successful strategy in the situation you > found yourself in. The major difference is though that I think you > knew that virtually everybody in the NG was disgusted by the > actions, accusations and downright libel of the other party and > supported you. I don't think anyone supports Steve, either. But as with Don's provocations, there's no action we can take to make it stop, so it's better to ignore him. Anything else is just an exercise in futility. SignatureDavid W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/ usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/ > I don't think anyone supports Steve, either. But as with Don's > provocations, there's no action we can take to make it stop, so it's > better to ignore him. > > Anything else is just an exercise in futility. It's ridiculous to banter back and forth with him. It makes everyone involved look stupid. My money is on a single message with a link to Arno's tell-tale website. >> I don't think anyone supports Steve, either. But as with Don's >> provocations, there's no action we can take to make it stop, so [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > everyone involved look stupid. My money is on a single message > with a link to Arno's tell-tale website. The single response was proposed weeks ago, yet those who have their knickers in a twist over Steve have not actually followed that advice (which at the time they all agreed was A Good Idea). They just can't let it go, it seems. SignatureDavid W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/ usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/ David mentioned irony in the message within which he announced that he had killfiled me. I think there might be a larger irony here. This particular thread was not about datasheet. David failed to notice that. After the initial flame bait post, the thread was about slamming newbies. Who had done that recently? I think everyone knows. And finally, take a look back through the thread, who posted the greatest number of messages that sustained the various subthreads? In his zeal to condemn those who are actively opposing the CDMA advertising, it was David himself who elevated this particular thread to the regrettable flame fest that it is. Of course, David won't see this message. SignatureRandy Harris tech at promail dot com I'm pretty sure I know everything that I can remember. > This particular > thread was not about datasheet. David failed to notice that. After the > initial flame bait post, the thread was about slamming newbies. Correct, it's one of the drawbacks of killfiling people I've found. It's important to ascertain if there are "missing" portions of a thread that gets one's ire so that one doesn't look silly in one's reactions. Terry's advice is similar to what I've posted elsewhere. Arno is wrong in wondering if complaints to ISPs have any effects: there is more than one user on usenet, for example, I've seen have their account removed (sometimes including a post from the ISP) and quite recently, a anonymous remailer to whom I complained wrote me back to say the group in question had been removed from that poster's available groups. So ISP complaints DO work. Follow the procedure I posted elsewhere and Terry's recipe - it'll make for a better group on all fronts, I think. SignatureTim http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~tmarshal/ ^o< /#) "Burp-beep, burp-beep, burp-beep?" - Quaker Jake /^^ "Whatcha doin?" - Ditto "TIM-MAY!!" - Me > Could I suggest that the following would be a reasonable strategy. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Simple, effective, regains the moral high ground and stops the arguments > between your "group" and everynody else. PRECISELY what has been done for the last couple of weeks. All 4 suggestions! Don't shout, please. This is precisely what hasn't been happening at all. It may have been the intention but it has not been the practice. SignatureTerry Kreft >> Could I suggest that the following would be a reasonable strategy. >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > PRECISELY what has been done for the last couple of weeks. All 4 > suggestions! > Hi Rob, > I guess you are just 'asking' to be the following person to be plonked by > our 'big shot' here... ;-) > Because: if you don't agree with DWF and not immediately back down when he > tells you... that might be your fate. > This seems to be specifically the case in threads he did not read fully. You know, I *used* to have the greatest of respect for David, he has helped me once or twice and I sympathised with his plight of being harrassed by Don Mellon, but recently I have read more and more postings of his where his bedside manner was bruske to say the least. He recently gave me a telling of like a naughty schoolboy, when I responded and "gave as good as I got" I got "plonked". Whatever will I do now? Who turned out all the lights? David's ego knows no bounds. > Fair enough. You are clearly unaware of the actual issue, and you > don't care about it. Maybe you'd be better off not lecturing > people about it until you do. I know exactly what the actual issue is and recognize that it can't be resolved except if Steve decides to change his behavior. It's quite clear that the constant hectoring of the bunch of you only makes Steve *less* likely to change, as he started out responding to it relatively civilly and eventually changed to majorly nasty (at which point I killfiled him). SignatureDavid W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/ usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/ Here's another one of the bunch of losers! SignaturePC Datasheet Your Resource For Help With Access, Excel And Word Applications Over 1050 users have come from the newsgroups trusting me and requesting help. resource@pcdatasheet.com > Just agreeing with fred, but would like to add, to dbNovice, that this > thread may well degenerate into another flamefest. If so, it has nothing [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >> click on links to Communities, then Newsgroups, then Office, finally >> Access. > Here's another one of the bunch of losers! How do you have time to do all the work for your thousands of clients when you're continually trying to defend yourself on here? I put it to you that you have very little work, are struggling with large debts and try to drum up business here to mitigate your position. Why else would you be so bad tempered all the time? [nothing worth reading] If this kind of thread occurs again, with you stirring up sh*t were there's no justification for doing so, then you'll end up in my killfile along with Steve. SignatureDavid W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/ usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/ > [nothing worth reading] > > If this kind of thread occurs again, with you stirring up sh*t were > there's no justification for doing so, then you'll end up in my > killfile along with Steve. And that would affect me how? What I wrote I believe to be true, the profile fits perfectly. The guy is desperate to claw in money from whatever unscrupulous methods he sees fit. > > If this kind of thread occurs again, with you stirring up sh*t were > > there's no justification for doing so, then you'll end up in my > > killfile along with Steve. > And that would affect me how? May we guess? My guesses are: Improved blood pressure readings; The same as a small glass of Dry Sack before bedtime; A greater appreciation of beautiful sunrises; A significant other saying, "You've been sooooooo sweet lately; you're going to get a special reward tonight!". >>And that would affect me how? > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > A significant other saying, "You've been sooooooo sweet lately; you're > going to get a special reward tonight!". I wish! :o) >> [nothing worth reading] >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > the profile fits perfectly. The guy is desperate to claw in money > from whatever unscrupulous methods he sees fit. Well, I'm one of a group of regular posters who contributes a lot of replies to the group. I think some percentage of my replies are worthwhile (though certainly not all of them, of course). If you're in my killfile, I won't be answering helping with any problems you might post. Of course, except for the subject of PC Datasheet, I don't recognize you as someone who contributes to the newsgroup at all, either in asking questions or in answering them, so perhaps it would be no loss to have me (or anyone else) killfile you. But if I'm contemplating killfiling you, it may very well be that some large number of newsgroup participants who could potentially help you with your Access problems have concluded that you're not worth reading, and has already killfiled you. To me, this dispute looks like the Vietnam-era "burning down the village to save it." By attempting to "save" CDMA by going after Steve, you're introducing a huge amount of noise that is more disruptive of overall newsgroup traffic than the offense you are trying to combat. Here's a free clue: Steve is not going to change. Get used to. Killfile him and get on with your life. SignatureDavid W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/ usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/ >>And that would affect me how? What I wrote I believe to be true, >>the profile fits perfectly. The guy is desperate to claw in money [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > replies to the group. I think some percentage of my replies are > worthwhile (though certainly not all of them, of course). You have indeed helped me in the past for which I am grateful. > If you're > in my killfile, I won't be answering helping with any problems you > might post. There's always someone else David. > Of course, except for the subject of PC Datasheet, I don't recognize > you as someone who contributes to the newsgroup at all, either in > asking questions or in answering them, so perhaps it would be no > loss to have me (or anyone else) killfile you. I have been a regular poster for 7 years, both in questions and answers, as a simple search of several of the Access groups (not just this one) will reveal. At least two MVPs have links to my Security example on their web sites. > But if I'm contemplating killfiling you, it may very well be that > some large number of newsgroup participants who could potentially > help you with your Access problems have concluded that you're not > worth reading, and has already killfiled you. I answer more questions than I ask. It's their prerogative to KF anyone they like but it may also be their loss. > To me, this dispute looks like the Vietnam-era "burning down the > village to save it." By attempting to "save" CDMA by going after > Steve, you're introducing a huge amount of noise that is more > disruptive of overall newsgroup traffic than the offense you are > trying to combat. But it will hopefully put off other would-be offenders. I'd hate to see this useful recourse lost in spam. > Here's a free clue: Please don't patronise me David, I don't need it. > Steve is not going to change. That's rather defeatist, enough complaints to his ISP will ensure he does. > Get used to. > > Killfile him and get on with your life. This issue takes up very little of my time I'm happy to report. [] >> Here's a free clue: > > Please don't patronise me David, I don't need it. If you're acting like a child it shouldn't surprise you to be treated like one. >> Steve is not going to change. > > That's rather defeatist, enough complaints to his ISP will ensure > he does. It's only going to have results if the ISP acts on it. Many ISPs ignore these kinds of things these days. Indeed, Don Mellon made several false accusations to my ISP back when he was on his crusade against me. Since my ISP knew me a lot better than Don, they ignored them. >> Get used to. >> >> Killfile him and get on with your life. > > This issue takes up very little of my time I'm happy to report. OK, then. <PLONK> SignatureDavid W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/ usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/ >> This issue takes up very little of my time I'm happy to report. > > OK, then. > > <PLONK> Ah, the happy, happy sound of an argument being lost. Fenton really does have an inflated sense of his own importance. > <PLONKer> You certainly are. I'm begining to understand why Don Mellon hates you. I doubt that very much. <Ironic humour> Of course if you display paranoid schizophrenia allied with bipolararity controlled with hit and miss medication and extreme homophobia then maybe I'm wrong <g>. </Ironic humour> SignatureTerry Kreft >> <PLONKer> > > You certainly are. I'm begining to understand why Don Mellon hates you. >I doubt that very much. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I'm wrong <g>. > </Ironic humour> You're right, that was uncalled for, I am in no way allied to DM regardless of provocation. By the way, I agree with your suggestion about how to "deal" with Steve, we did indeed have this in place but this thread was started as a blatent troll and we all fell for it, or so it seems. I apologize for accidentally replying to the newsgroup instead of to you directly. I don't make a habit of involving myself in the muck you may be observing. And while the group is pretty polluted it does have some really knowledgeable people and you may be able to get some help there. But you're most likely to get help with really specific questions. Broad questions like "how to design a database with Access" are not likely to get you much more than cat calls and vendor come-ons. My advice would be to go to a used book store and by spend $5 for access 2000 course (like the Shelly Cashman series one I found a few years ago) then spend a few solid days just "doing" the book. Finish that and you'll be ready to do your own "design" and you'll be asking the kind of specific questions on the forum than might get you good answers. Good Luck! > Does anyone know a good site where I can find a MS Access forum so I > can get additional info about dB design with Access. > Broad > questions like "how to design a database with Access" are not > likely to get you much more than cat calls and vendor come-ons. I consider that a *good* thing. Why would criticism of such a poorly-framed question not be the correct response? SignatureDavid W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/ usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/ Which of course is the reason I replied to him as I initially did. If a newbie is just gonna get slammed when he asks a newbie question shouldn't we send him somewhere where he'll get a better reception, or failing that, at least warn him what he faces here? >>Broad >>questions like "how to design a database with Access" are not [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Why would criticism of such a poorly-framed question not be the > correct response? >>>Broad >>>questions like "how to design a database with Access" are not [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > question shouldn't we send him somewhere where he'll get a better > reception, or failing that, at least warn him what he faces here? Eh? A newbie is not going to get "slammed" in any event. If his question is badly worded or confusing, people will likely try to answer it as best they can and suggest that more detail is needed. This is what happens *all the time* in this newsgroup. A perfect recent example of this is the thread "Loosing Db connection?!?!?!" where it was not at all clear what was going on from the context. Some people criticized the code (which is not the same thing as attacking the poster), others attempted to answer, but most criticized the framing of the question. I don't know if the OP got a working resolution or not, but it was not for wont of trying. SignatureDavid W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/ usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/ > Which of course is the reason I replied to him as I initially did. If a > newbie is just gonna get slammed when he asks a newbie question [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Why would criticism of such a poorly-framed question not be the > > correct response? IMO - this entire thread was launched by a rather effectively crafted wind up. There never was a question asked. To the best of my recollection, CDMA has *never* been a place where newbies have been slammed. The proposed reply above, "Broad questions..." would be appropriate for such a poorly stated question, but I can't see how that could be termed slamming. That was not, however, the tenor of Mike's initial reply in this thread. Warning away a newbie from CDMA with a threat of "calling newbies bad names" is not accurate, nor helpful for the newbie. SignatureRandy Harris tech at promail dot com I'm pretty sure I know everything that I can remember. > Does anyone know a good site where I can find a MS Access forum so I > can get additional info about dB design with Access. There is information here in this group that was learned through years of experience that would be very difficult to find elsewhere. However, sometimes the noise/signal ratio is a bit high. Check out UtterAccess. Friendly and helpful folks there. http://www.utteraccess.com Signature'--------------- 'John Mishefske '--------------- You should be able to find one or two things here: http://home.bendbroadband.com/conradsystems/accessjunkie/resources.html SignatureJeff Conrad Access Junkie - MVP http://home.bendbroadband.com/conradsystems/accessjunkie.html http://www.access.qbuilt.com/html/articles.html > Does anyone know a good site where I can find a MS Access forum so I > can get additional info about dB design with Access. > Does anyone know a good site where I can find a MS Access forum so I > can get additional info about dB design with Access. A db novice but not a flame-bait novice I see. > > Does anyone know a good site where I can find a MS Access forum so I > > can get additional info about dB design with Access. > > > A db novice but not a flame-bait novice I see. Hmmm.... Good observation. I suspect you might be right. |
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