MS Access Forum / General 2 / May 2008
Access 2002, multiple user access
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elongp - 02 May 2008 19:16 GMT I read the posts on this topic from 2005 & 2006. What we've been doing is setting permissions on the .ldb file so it cannot be deleted. That seems to work pretty well.
We have one division who uses this, but they create new dbs all of the time or move the original from one directory to another, and of course it no longer works.
Do you think the db splitter is the way to go for them? I am going to read Bob Larson's explanation of Access and how the splitting works. If it's not that difficult, I may do it for them the first time then turn it over to the users!
Any suggestions?
Thanks, (Ms) E Long Powell TX Dept of Ins Austin, TX
Wayne-I-M - 02 May 2008 19:52 GMT Hi
Splitting the DB is not going to stop someone from creating new ones or copying the front end to a new location. You could put secutirty on the back end - but if they know even a little about how computers work (not access but computer in general) they will still be able to copy even the BE.
It sounds to me (many people here may diagree with this by the way ) that this is not really an access problem but a people problem. It seems that you may just have to go a see the people createing the problems and tell them not to.
I understand this is some times a problem but it's really the one thing that will work in the long term
 Signature Wayne Manchester, England.
> I read the posts on this topic from 2005 & 2006. What we've been doing is > setting permissions on the .ldb file so it cannot be deleted. That seems to [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > TX Dept of Ins > Austin, TX elongp - 02 May 2008 21:53 GMT Well, it's their data, and if they need to create a new db, who am I to stop them. Thanks for suggesting it, though. It would just not work with this group.
What is the general opinion of locking the .ldb from being deleted?
> Hi > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > TX Dept of Ins > > Austin, TX david@epsomdotcomdotau - 02 May 2008 23:37 GMT > What is the general opinion of locking the .ldb from being deleted? I think it's a reasonable idea, but it is quite uncommon.
Some history:
1) Access 2.0, running on Windows 3.11, had a problem if Access, Windows, or your Computer crashed. The problem was that the LDB was left with an uncompleted transaction, and needed to be reset before it could be used again.
2) Access 2.0, Win 3.11, ran slowly and took a lot of memory on computers of the time. We used to have reports that took an hour to run! (People were pleased because they replaced reports that took people a week to compile).
3) Access 95 was a dog, and crashed a lot.
In Access 98, a solution to these three problems was to delete the .ldb file when you closed Access.
1) If the ldb is missing, you can create a new one with no broken transactions.
2) If the ldb is missing, you know nobody else is using the database, and you can use a new, faster, 'exclusive mode'
3) You can delete the ldb if it gets corrupted.
None of these reasons particularly apply to you, as you have seen. If you do have problems with a corrupt LDB, or if you want to run in 'exclusive mode', then you need to delete the LDB. Otherwise, deletion is just a historical oddity.
(david)
> Well, it's their data, and if they need to create a new db, who am I to stop > them. Thanks for suggesting it, though. It would just not work with this [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > > TX Dept of Ins > > > Austin, TX Tom Wickerath - 03 May 2008 05:35 GMT Hi David and Ms. E Long Powell,
> > What is the general opinion of locking the .ldb from being deleted? > > I think it's a reasonable idea, but it is quite uncommon. I don't think this is a good idea. You can use Windows to remove delete permissions on the .mdb file itself, but you should allow the .ldb file to be deleted. See the article below that I provided a link for.
> In Access 98, a solution to these three problems... Was that the Mac version of Access? <smile>
> Otherwise, deletion is just a historical oddity. I disagree. Access is designed to delete the locking database file when the last user exits the application. If this file is not automatically deleted, this can be a sign of corruption. More information here:
Introduction to .ldb Files http://support.microsoft.com/?id=299373
Tom Wickerath Microsoft Access MVP http://www.accessmvp.com/TWickerath/ http://www.access.qbuilt.com/html/expert_contributors.html __________________________________________
> > What is the general opinion of locking the .ldb from being deleted? > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > (david) david@epsomdotcomdotau - 03 May 2008 23:22 GMT ...Can't see anything there that proves the argument Tom...
(david)
> Hi David and Ms. E Long Powell, > [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > > > > (david) Tom Wickerath - 04 May 2008 01:51 GMT Hi David,
Take another look at KB 299373 (http://support.microsoft.com/?id=299373). This includes the following quote:
"Whenever the last user closes a shared database, the .ldb file is deleted. The only exceptions are when a user does not have delete rights or when the database is marked as corrupted."
Do you really want to remove the canary from the coal mine, thus losing an early indicator of possible database corruption? Iwouldn't. While this doesn't prove anything, I think it follows best practices to let Access work as it was designed to work. Your choice, of course. For me, I'll choose to retain the canary as an early indicator of problems.
Tom Wickerath Microsoft Access MVP http://www.accessmvp.com/TWickerath/ http://www.access.qbuilt.com/html/expert_contributors.html __________________________________________
> ....Can't see anything there that proves the argument Tom... > > (david) david@epsomdotcomdotau - 04 May 2008 10:39 GMT Well it says it right there: the exception is when the user does not have delete rights.
You have got the next bit a little bit the wrong way around.
Deleting the ldb doesn't expose corruption, it hides it. As the reference points out, when the ldb is NOT deleted you can see some history in it.
So automatic deletion of the ldb is not the "canary in the coal mine"
A true point is, and was, that deleting the LDB allows you to delete hanging locks (hide the problem).
This was never more than a side issue to the real question, which was asked all the time, over and over, by thousands of new users: what are all these LDB files? Where did they come from? Are they safe to delete? Do I have to back them up? Why does MS create these annoying files? Why doesn't MS delete these annoying files after they are no longer required?
And, as I mentioned before, the other reason for LDB deletion is to support "exclusive mode" -- which I have NEVER seen used with a split FE/BE system, so unless you are very unusual, or you don't recommend FE/BE (!) there is the most important reason for deleting the LDB gone.
Of course Jet "exclusive mode" predates modern Windows network optimisations, which support exclusive mode underneath Jet even when Jet is in shared mode.
The next objection is "let Access work as it was designed to work"
My disagreement with that is that I've been around long enough to remember the way that Access was designed to work. It wasn't designed to delete the ldb.
Deleting the ldb makes Jet slower to open, and slower to close. It's a kludge to make exclusive mode work (no longer required), and a kludge to work around the instability of Win 3.11 and A95, (no longer required), and an important marketing kludge, and it was tacked onto the Jet engine by the people who gave us Jet 3.0.
But I'm not saying that's a definitive argument: normally you don't need to see what's in the ldb, so it's safe to delete it, and sometimes you do want exclusive mode (for compact and repair) so you need to delete it, and there is a work-around for the slow-open problem.
So although I don't have any objection to people removing the delete permission for ldb files, I'm not a proponent either. It's another situation where the default behaviour is correct for most new users.
(david)
> Hi David, > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > > > (david) Tom Wickerath - 04 May 2008 10:58 GMT Hi David,
> You have got the next bit a little bit the wrong way around. With all due respect to you, and your long history using earlier versions of Access, I do not believe I have it wrong.
> Deleting the ldb doesn't expose corruption, it hides it. I do not agree. According to Microsoft, the INABILITY of Access to delete the locking database file is a sign of possible JET database corruption, ie. "...when the database is marked as corrupted." Don't misread this statement by making the assumption that as long as the .ldb file is always deleted automatically, the database is corruption free. It doesn't say that. It simply says that when the database is MARKED as corrupt, the .ldb file is not deleted. If you are intentionally preventing the automatic deletion of the .ldb file, then you simply will never see this early warning sign of potential corruption.
I didn't misread anything. I believe you have, but I'm also not going to waste my time trying to convince you further.
Tom Wickerath Microsoft Access MVP http://www.accessmvp.com/TWickerath/ http://www.access.qbuilt.com/html/expert_contributors.html __________________________________________
> Well it says it right there: the exception is when the user does > not have delete rights. [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > > (david) david@epsomdotcomdotau - 05 May 2008 01:19 GMT > Hi David,
> but I'm also not going to waste my time trying to convince you further. Save time by leaving out the insulting remarks. :~)
Regards
(david)
elongp - 06 May 2008 13:55 GMT So I guess in response to my original query =- ) locking the .ldb, or preventing it from being deleted, is not the ideal way to share a db with multiple users. I will pass on that information giving them the front end/back end options talked about in these posts.
Thanks,
E Long Powell Austin, TX
Alan - 07 May 2008 14:53 GMT > Hi David and Ms. E Long Powell, > [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Hi,
Perhaps you need to recover the database if necessary. You may try Advanced Access Repair at http://www.datanumen.com/aar/ This tool is rather useful in salvaging damaged Access MDB files.
Alan
elongp - 07 May 2008 16:59 GMT Thanks for all of your input. There is nothing wrong with any database. I was asking opinions on how to best share a network db. Our user is asking for an easier way than locking down the .ldb. I don't think they'll go for splitting and making an mde, and I will suggest it.
Thanks!
E Long Powell Austin TX
david - 09 May 2008 01:54 GMT While it's a good idea, I'm not sure that splitting and making an MDE will solve any problems they have, if they are having any problems.
Why are they removing delete permission from the ldb?
So that the new ldb is not created with the wrong permissions? Because you don't have create permission in the data folder? In that case, the standard procedure is to set the default permission for the data folder, so that ldb's are created with the correct permission.
So that that the mdb can be opened and closed faster? In that case, removing the delete permission is an advanced option, for people who have already considered other options.
Because you have users opening the mdb in exclusive mode? That would be fixed with a FE/BE split, but another option would be to remove the open/exclusive permission from the default user inside access (Access has a whole parallel set of internal permissions, because it predates Windows permissions).
(david)
> Thanks for all of your input. There is nothing wrong with any database. I > was [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > E Long Powell > Austin TX elongp - 12 May 2008 13:15 GMT There are no problems. Some people only have read permissions on the folder, so we have to remove delete permissions so multiple people can access the db. They complain because when they copy or move the db, it breaks the permissions. Again, thanks for all of the input. I have the suggestions to offer.
No further discussion needed, unless you guys want to virtually duke it out some more! =-)
> While it's a good idea, I'm not sure that splitting and making an MDE > will solve any problems they have, if they are having any problems. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > E Long Powell > > Austin TX
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