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MS Access Forum / Multiuser / Networking / March 2005

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is access front end still pulling everything over the network?

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djc - 15 Feb 2005 22:43 GMT
below is copy/pasted from a conversation I had some time ago. The only
change to our system is that the tables are now located on a SQL Server 2000
and the front end files were relinked via ODBC to these same tables. I
believe the proper term for this setup is Jet Connected OBDC. So my question
is this: With Jet Connected ODBC is all this information still pulled over
the network as described below?:

"I don't have quite enough details regarding your issue with Access, but I
can surmise based upon how Access functions.  When a query is posted against
an Access database, the entire database is pulled across the network in
order to perform the query, hence the reason you need high bandwidth to
support the use of the application. ...."

rest of quote has no purpose for this post.

any info is appreciated Thanks.
Bill Edwards - 16 Feb 2005 00:09 GMT
First, the initial statement that "the entire database is pulled across the
network..." is simply not accurate.

Simply moving your tables from a Jet backend to a SQL backend is not likely
to result in performance improvements (which I am assuming based on the
context of your message was the reason) unless you do a re-write of your
application to take advantages of SQL server triggers, stored procedures and
views.  Usually, simply moving the tables to SQL server without re-coding
the front end using client-server concepts will cause a performance
decrease.

So I guess the answer to your question "is all this information still pulled
over the network as described below" is that all the information was never
pulled across the network as described below to begin with.

The things I would look at in the case of a poorly performing Access/Jet
application would be:
(1)    Indexing
(2)    Returning small recordsets
(3)    Avoiding code that uses recordsets if the same thing can be
accomplished with a SQL statement

> below is copy/pasted from a conversation I had some time ago. The only
> change to our system is that the tables are now located on a SQL Server
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> is this: With Jet Connected ODBC is all this information still pulled over
> the network as described below?:

> "I don't have quite enough details regarding your issue with Access, but I
> can surmise based upon how Access functions.  When a query is posted
> against
> an Access database, the entire database is pulled across the network in
> order to perform the query, hence the reason you need high bandwidth to
> support the use of the application. ...."

> rest of quote has no purpose for this post.
>
> any info is appreciated Thanks.
djc - 16 Feb 2005 12:42 GMT
thanks for the input. I had looked into this but its been a while. Just
looking to confirm then that a db setup in the manor is still JET. So any
inefficiencies that were there before the table move would still be there
now (if not worse).

thanks again.

> First, the initial statement that "the entire database is pulled across the
> network..." is simply not accurate.
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> >
> > any info is appreciated Thanks.
Albert D. Kallal - 18 Feb 2005 01:00 GMT
> thanks for the input. I had looked into this but its been a while. Just
> looking to confirm then that a db setup in the manor is still JET. So any
> inefficiencies that were there before the table move would still be there
> now (if not worse).

I can most agree with the above. As mentioned, even when you do NOT use sql
server, ms-access does not (normally) pull the whole data over, but only
records required.

The same logic applies to sql server. It turns out that sql server is
actually more forgiving of doing really dumb stuff, but at the end of the
day, good designs are required to mim the network traffic regardless if you
are using a file share (mdb back end), or sql server...

Signature

Albert D. Kallal   (Access MVP)
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
pleaseNOOSpamKallal@msn.com
http://www.members.shaw.ca/AlbertKallal

Larry  Linson - 20 Feb 2005 04:15 GMT
> thanks for the input. I had looked into
> this but its been a while. Just looking to
> confirm then that a db setup in the
> manor is still JET. So any inefficiencies
> that were there before the table move
> would still be there now (if not worse).

If you are looking for confirmation that Jet being involved is a problem,
then you are doomed to disappointment. Jet is not a problem -- in fact, it
turned out to be more capable and more efficient than even its developers
suspected it would. But, you are correct: if the orginal implementation
included inefficient uses of Jet, they will still be there. And, yes,
because of the following, moving from multiuser to client-server often does,
initially, perform worse.

And, just as a well-designed, well-implemented single-user database does not
automatically result in a well-designed, well-implemented multiuser
database, neither does a well-designed, well-implemented multiuser database
linked to a server automatically result in a well-designed, well-implemented
client application to the server database. You need to understand and take
advantage of the strengths of each of these environments.

It does not, as so many detractors claim "pull the entire database across
the network" -- that just is not so. It treats the shared folder just as it
would a folder on the local hard drive... retrieving only what it needs to
do whatever is the task at hand. If the database application is
well-designed and well-implemented that may be only the index on which the
record is selected, and the particular record (or "page", depending on what
you specified) of interest.

And, while you can get some gains from stored procedures, and other SQL
Server-specific items, I have worked on a number of client applications to
server databases where those were, by client demand, avoided. It turns out
that Jet-ODBC-server is far more efficient than many would suspect -- you
can get very good performance without resorting to stored procedures, etc..
(triggers are often used to implement referential integrity on some server
databases, and may be created by the data modeling software used by the
DBA). Microsoft SQL Server is something of an exception, because you can
specify referential integrity in a manner much the same as you do in Access.
The reason the client had us avoid using server-specific features was
two-fold: (1) they wanted to preserve their options to change server
databases, and, (2) competent Access developers were easier to find and less
expensive to contract than competent server database DBAs and developers.

Larry Linson
Microsoft Access MVP
djc - 15 Mar 2005 16:38 GMT
thanks for the input Larry. What you have described is my understanding as
well. Unfortunately the developer working for us in not aware of how to
properly design a jet application. Or at least didn't do so.

>  > thanks for the input. I had looked into
>  > this but its been a while. Just looking to
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> Larry Linson
> Microsoft Access MVP
Larry  Linson - 16 Mar 2005 07:39 GMT
> thanks for the input Larry. What you have
> described is my understanding as well.
> Unfortunately the developer working for
> us in not aware of how to properly design
> a jet application. Or at least didn't do so.

There are a lot of less-than-optimum designs and implementations around, for
various reasons -- not always due to the developer's knowledge and
competence levels.

However, it may be time for you to find a developer with good experience in
the environment you want to target, and with good references, to come in and
review the database. Fixing a database can range from relatively simple
changes that do not require a great deal of effort; to something that just
should be redesigned and reimplemented, salvaging only the data from the
original.

 Larry Linson
 Microsoft Access MVP
djc - 16 Mar 2005 13:38 GMT
thanks again Larry. Your input is always appreciated.

>  > thanks for the input Larry. What you have
>  > described is my understanding as well.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>   Larry Linson
>   Microsoft Access MVP
 
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